Bisexual Values

[tenni]

I was watching a television report on potential mayor candidates in Toronto tonight. The candidate that is basically tied , George Smitherman, is a publicly gay, married man who has been in politics for awhile. He has held a provincial cabinet position. One of his opponents chose not to show for this meeting in a GLT area known as Church St or the Village (gay). That candidate is a bit extremist who said that he would stand up to those. He has made some rather radical statements about ethnics, and gays. George's remaining opponent made a statement to the crowds. He said that you do not give up on the values of your (gay) community.(I think in context of giving in to city hall..not sure as it was only a sound clip)

There has been a lot of "not that" or "bisexual are" statements made on this site. What I wonder about though is what are bisexual values?

I don't expect total agreement but I thought that it might be interesting to read other people's thoughts on bisexual values. In fact, if you don't believe that there are any bisexual values, just don't respond or argue with what someone else believes is a bisexual value please.

In your view, what are some bisexual values?

[Long Duck Dong]

I was watching a television report on potential mayor candidates in Toronto tonight. The candidate that is basically tied , George Smitherman, is a publicly gay, married man who has been in politics for awhile. He has held a provincial cabinet position. One of his opponents chose not to show for this meeting in a GLT area known as Church St or the Village (gay). That candidate is a bit extremist who said that he would stand up to those. He has made some rather radical statements about ethnics, and gays. George's remaining opponent made a statement to the crowds. He said that you do not give up on the values of your (gay) community.(I think in context of giving in to city hall..not sure as it was only a sound clip)

There has been a lot of "not that" or "bisexual are" statements made on this site. What I wonder about though is what are bisexual values?

I don't expect total agreement but I thought that it might be interesting to read other people's thoughts on bisexual values. In fact, if you don't believe that there are any bisexual values, just don't respond or argue with what someone else believes is a bisexual value please.

In your view, what are some bisexual values?

there are none really that are a direct result of being bisexual..... as bisexuality is a attraction...... and while it can be argued that bisexuals can be more person friendly.... that would deny the fact that the same friendliness is found in every other sexuality

the value of people that are bisexual is measured in their contribution to society, their community, their families, social groups etc etc but its the same as hetero, gay, les, bi, asexual etc people.....

we are too quick to assign sexuality values to people that do accomplish great things cos of who they slept with or were attracted to.... they accomplished them cos of who they are, what they do, and how they work in with others......

if anybody wants to argue that sexuality is a important aspecs of values.... explain jeffery dahmer to me in terms of value to the gay community, versus
California Sen. Sheila Kuehl
After California Senate approved gay marriage bill AB849, who stated
Gay and lesbian people fall in love. We settle down. We commit our lives to one another. We raise our children. We protect them. We try to be good citizens.

[nakedheathen]

Tolerance

[Something Else]

I think a 'bisexual value' is learning that there is no "right" or "wrong" answer.

Additionally, that the nebulous gray area between black & white precepts is far greater and larger than most any even consider.

Another value is not asserting beliefs onto others - as I don't accept other beliefs of others onto me.

And with that in mind, I speak for myself here; not for ALL bisexuals. Everybody's story is unique to their own path & journey.

[Cowboy51]

I don't really associate values with sexuality. Every "community"; gay, bi, hetero, etc., etc. has representatives that display either good or bad values, but it has nothing to do with their sexual identity. I'll stop there, as I forgot what else I wanted to say. Damn ADHD and earache.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I don't have 'bisexual values.' I just have 'values.'

A true person of worth is: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, & reverent.

Their sexuality does not change this. It is sad that so many use their sexuality to excuse their actions.

Pasa

[Graphfix]

I don't have 'bisexual values.' I just have 'values.'

A true person of worth is: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, & reverent.

Their sexuality does not change this. It is sad that so many use their sexuality to excuse their actions.

Pasa

I would like to add to these values: Love, Understanding, Compassion, Kindness. Although there are more values, being Bisexual does not preclude that we have a different value system based on our sexuality in comparision to other with different sexual preferences, but is only part of what we value as beings who care about others well-being; regardless of sexuality.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Bonus points for anyone who recognizes my list of values.

Pasa

[TaylorMade]

Bonus points for anyone who recognizes my list of values.

Pasa

You, Boy Scout, you...everything but morally straight, eh?

*Taylor*

[colobicouple]

I think Pasa pretty much covered it but I would also add tolerance to the list. Our values, personally, are pretty much based on "live and let live" and being tolerant of others who do not share our lifestyle. Unfortunately, others do not always reciprocate when it comes to lesbian, gay, or bisexual people.

Sharon & Dennis

[djones]

"Truth, Justice, and the American Way . . . "

[tenni]

"Truth, Justice, and the American Way . . . "

oh fuck...lol


I think that there must be quite a difference from what was being referred to at the meeting. Several of you seem to be stating that bisexual values are no different from the mainstream of your own particular mainstream culture.



I tried to google "gay values" to get an idea.

The only thing that it seems to come up with was a reference to "gay families" but I know that he was probably referring to other values(same sex marriage probably being one)

In that reference I suspect that the value would be something like as adapted from a gay family website

value 1
A family is not only a father and a mother but rather a UNIT OF LOVE, with one or more consenting adults regardless of gender, creed or color, providing support and unconditional love to their children with human compassion and understanding.

value 2
Gay and Lesbian couples can raise emotionally healthy children, able to lead happy lives with encouraged self-esteem and insurmountable self love, allowing them to have unyielding and uncompromising appreciation for themselves and for those around them.

I think that it would refer to specific values to bisexuals. Some have mentioned "tolerance" in the sense of being more tolerant than? I also wonder about the term "bisexual issues" and am unsure of what they are but suspect that a value would evolve from whatever bisexual issues are?

[Pasadenacpl2]

Dunno. I just think the answer is: there aren't any.

We are no more unified by our sexuality than we are by our skin color.

Pasa

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

lol Potty mouth, Tenni.
I personally aint got no values. I got some morals around here somewheres, but I aint no values. :bigrin:
Cheesy Cat

[AidanS57]

I agree with Pasa. There are no bisexual values because being bisexual is not all there is to me. I have a code of honor I follow, it means everything to me. That has nothing to do with being bisexual and plenty to do with being an honest man.

[bisexual Bill]

I don't have 'bisexual values.' I just have 'values.'

A true person of worth is: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, & reverent.

Their sexuality does not change this. It is sad that so many use their sexuality to excuse their actions.

Pasa

Too bad the BSA is highly homophobic and against anyone that's bisexual, gay, or lesbian.

Lord Robert Baden Powell was bisexual or even gay himself.

[IanBorthwick]

Too bad the BSA is highly homophobic and against anyone that's bisexual, gay, or lesbian.

Lord Robert Baden Powell was bisexual or even gay himself.

Actually they aren't. It's the Mormon Chapters that have given them this appearance as the standing of the BSA and "Morally Straight" has nothing, and they have stated this, to do with sexuality. I think Penn and Teller did a Bullshit episode on it, and it was in line with what I'd experienced with them with my son and why I took him out of the Mormon Scouts.

[bisexual Bill]

Actually they aren't. It's the Mormon Chapters that have given them this appearance as the standing of the BSA and "Morally Straight" has nothing, and they have stated this, to do with sexuality. I think Penn and Teller did a Bullshit episode on it, and it was in line with what I'd experienced with them with my son and why I took him out of the Mormon Scouts.

The BSA is still a hate group.

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in a 5-4 decision that the Boy Scouts could bar gay folks from serving as Scout leaders.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/28/scotus.gay.boyscouts/

June 28, 2000
Web posted at: 2:18 p.m. EDT (1818 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Supreme Court ruled Wednesday that the Boy Scouts of America can bar homosexuals from being troop leaders.

The justices by a 5-4 vote overturned a New Jersey Supreme Court ruling that the dismissal of a gay Scout leader had been illegal under the state's anti-discrimination law.

The Boy Scouts, which also exclude atheists and agnostics as leaders, said it has the right to decide who can join its ranks.

Forcing it to accept gays would violate its constitutional right of freedom of association and free speech under the First Amendment, it said.

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/

"We believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirements in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout Law that a Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not provide a desirable role model for Scouts. Because of these beliefs, the Boy Scouts of America does not accept homosexuals as members or as leaders, whether in volunteer or professional capacities." Boy Scouts of America, Position Statement on Homosexuality, June 1991

"To suggest that the BSA had no policy against active homosexuality is nonsense. It was an organization which from its inception had a God-acknowledged, moral foundation. It required its members, youth and adult, to take the Scout Oath that they would be "morally straight." It is unthinkable that in a society where there was universal governmental condemnation of the act of sodomy as a crime, that the BSA could or would tolerate active homosexuality if discovered in any of its members. . . .Men who do those criminal and immoral acts cannot be held out as role models." Superior Court Judge Patrick J. McGann, in Dale v. Boy Scouts of America, No. Mon-C-330-92

"[BSA's] witnesses all rely upon their own personal interpretation of the words "morally straight" and "clean" which they believe proscribe homosexuality. These views were epitomized by the testimony of William McClaughlin, the Director of Personnel Administration for the National Council of Boy Scouts of America. . . .McCloughlin testified that the reference in the Scout Oath and Law to sexual orientation was in the words "morally straight" and "clean." He stated that . . . in his application of the BSA guidelines on a national level, all behavior related to homosexual orientation is "immoral or indecent." He testified that he did not think that a gay man is able to devote himself to others, simply because he is gay." Excerpt from final ruling from the Chicago Commission on Human Relations, G. Keith Richardson v. Chicago Area Council of the Boy Scouts of America.

Anyone who is for GLBT rights and against hate would not let their kids join this hate group or the U.S. military which DADT is still in place for all thanks to Hussein Obama.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Anyone who is for GLBT rights and against hate would not let their kids join this hate group or the U.S. military which DADT is still in place for all thanks to Hussein Obama.

This is an untrue statement. It presents us with a logical fallacy where there can be only two possible outcomes, when in fact far more possibilities exist.

I will not debate the merits of the BSA or of the military with you. I will, however, point out that every person I've met who uses President Obama's middle name in the way that you did has been a bigot of the highest order. I find that ironic.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Too bad the BSA is highly homophobic and against anyone that's bisexual, gay, or lesbian.

Lord Robert Baden Powell was bisexual or even gay himself.

This is one biographer's hypothesis. It has no evidence to support it other than circumstantial.

I know the gay community likes to homo everything it can get it's hands on. But, without supporting evidence, it's just a fantasy. He was, however, a handsome man if you happen to like the father figure sort. ;)

Pasa

[bisexual Bill]

OK fine DADT is fucked all because of Barry Hussein Obama.

He and the democrats are not "staunch advocates for GLBT rights" but neither are the Republicans.

The BSA and all the branches of the American military do not allow gay men, lesbians, or bisexuals to serve or join.

They are against having gays, bisexuals, and lesbians in these organizations. This is the real bigotry and hate unlike using the President's middle name instead of his full name. :rolleyes:

[bisexual Bill]

This is one biographer's hypothesis. It has no evidence to support it other than circumstantial.

I know the gay community likes to homo everything it can get it's hands on. But, without supporting evidence, it's just a fantasy. He was, however, a handsome man if you happen to like the father figure sort. ;)

Pasa

It's not just one biographer. Do your own research on him.

What type of men turn you on?

[Pasadenacpl2]

I've done plenty of research on Lord Baden Powell. I have read just about everything he wrote, have read two biographies and use his writing as inspirational material for the boys in our troop.

I'm not into father figures, however. His young photos, however....wow.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

OK fine DADT is fucked all because of Barry Hussein Obama.

He and the democrats are not "staunch advocates for GLBT rights" but neither are the Republicans.

The BSA and all the branches of the American military do not allow gay men, lesbians, or bisexuals to serve or join.

They are against having gays, bisexuals, and lesbians in these organizations. This is the real bigotry and hate unlike using the President's middle name instead of his full name. :rolleyes:

No, the bigotry in this post is the attempt to somehow connect Obama with being Muslim. The use of Hussein is meant to invoke a climate of fear. It has been very calculated since his run for office started. It is a logical fallacy called Appeal to Fear, and it is very subtle in its effectiveness.

I can discuss for many hours the issue of gays in the military or the Boy Scouts. Neither are hate groups. One is a military. The other is a private organization that has membership rules.

I seem to recall going into a mens club recently. They did not allow women. They did not even allow trannies to enter if they were dressed as a woman. Are they a hate group?

Pasa

[IanBorthwick]

Since this has gotten derailed already, I'l just post the link on what I was talking about before...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceOb1-O8rPc

[tequilafan]

I don't have 'bisexual values.' I just have 'values.'

A true person of worth is: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, & reverent.

Their sexuality does not change this. It is sad that so many use their sexuality to excuse their actions.

Pasa

Spoken like a true Scout!

[Cats_Kit]

Good evening Tenni;

I am not certain of what you mean by bisexual values, but should not bisexuals all have the same values as everyone else?
Could you enlighten me please? I am still so new to the bisexual world that I seem a bit naive at times.

Thank you,
Kit

[Cowboy51]

Yes, please clarify what you are hoping to discuss here. As I have stated, I don't associate "values" with sexuality. If this seems negative, then so be it. Values, TO ME IN MY INTERPRETATION, are Morals and Virtues. So if I am missing the point, please redirect.

[NotLostJustWandering]

I think it may be necessary to clarify the distinctions between "values", "principles", and "ethics". Time somebody looked up the definitions and posted them here, IMO, but it ain't me right now...

Just want to say that if we do come to some consensus on a single
bisexual value or principle or ethic it's going to have something to do with not generalizing. That seems to be the overall mood of the community; do you not all sense the sheer resistance to pigeonholing or (LOL) even forming consensus on almost any subject around here, which is strikingly different from the mood of the gay and lesbian community? The resistance to the question itself shows the way to its answer.

[tenni]

Yes, please clarify what you are hoping to discuss here. As I have stated, I don't associate "values" with sexuality. If this seems negative, then so be it. Values, TO ME IN MY INTERPRETATION, are Morals and Virtues. So if I am missing the point, please redirect.

Well, as I wrote, this thought came to me after seeing a politician speaking on television in reference to a part of Toronto noted for being a gay community. He referenced the word values. I am wondering if the word "beliefs" might be a better starting point. I am so disappointed in the approach taken by some though. As Not states, some just want to say that bisexuals have no commonality. I must admit that I find it difficult to articulate a value specific to bisexuals as well though. I thought that "tolerance" might have been a good start. I think that is valued by some on this site. Others give it lip service and turn around and show vindictiveness towards some bisexuals who do not live up to their morality. Enough written. I'm so very disappointed in this site at the moment.

[Cowboy51]

Well, as I wrote, this thought came to me after seeing a politician speaking on television in reference to a part of Toronto noted for being a gay community. He referenced the word values. I am wondering if the word "beliefs" might be a better starting point. I am so disappointed in the approach taken by some though. As Not states, some just want to say that bisexuals have no commonality. I must admit that I find it difficult to articulate a value specific to bisexuals as well though. I thought that "tolerance" might have been a good start. I think that is valued by some on this site. Others give it lip service and turn around and show vindictiveness towards some bisexuals who do not live up to their morality. Enough written. I'm so very disappointed in this site at the moment.

I am actually using the quote box thingy this time. I would use it more often, but I have yet to figure out how to do multiple quotes. Anyways... IMO the problem was best stated by NOT, and you agreed I believe, when he said we always seem to put forth resistance to pigeonholing. THIS IS MY OPINION: homosexuality doesn't seem to be as diverse as bisexuality (I would say heterosexuality also, but it could be misconstrued with other arguments, like the one mentioned about MSM in another thread) and this is where our problems with a general consensus develop. STAY WITH ME. For homosexuals, it is widely understood as having a relationship (any relationship) with the same sex/gender. Bisexuality seems to have a BROAD scope of what constitutes as being bisexual, and we have seen these discussions/arguments over and over. (I.E.: I am bisexual because I am a "straight" person that occasionally has sex with another person of the same sex; I am bisexual because I want to be in a relationship with both men and women; I am bisexual because I am a gay person that wants to be in a relationship with both men and women; I am bisexual because I am a gay person that occasionally has sex with another person of the opposite sex; I like to have sex with both men and women, but I am not bisexual; THIS COULD GO ON AND ON) With such a broad generalization about bisexuality, it would be very difficult to come up with "VALUES" (lack of a better word/term) and I 100% agree with NOT, the resistance to this question shows the way to the answer. (This is where I wish I could use the multiple quotes.) As far as being disappointed with this site at the moment, what do you expect is going to happen when there are discussions about morals, virtues, values, politics, etc., etc. (I JUST CALL IT THE WAY I SEE IT.)

[NotLostJustWandering]

How about we try approaching this inquiry from a different angle, and ask instead:

Is there a bisexual spirit, something that has an influence on bisexuals regardless of their individual values, credos, experience of their sexuality and expression thereof? If so, what is the nature of that spirit?

A word that has come to my mind is "centrifugal."

Any thoughts on this?

[Cowboy51]

How about we try approaching this inquiry from a different angle, and ask instead:

Is there a bisexual spirit, something that has an influence on bisexuals regardless of their individual values, credos, experience of their sexuality and expression thereof? If so, what is the nature of that spirit?

A word that has come to my mind is "centrifugal."

Any thoughts on this?

Centrifugal: tending away from centralization : separatist <centrifugal tendencies in modern society> (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)

There really isn't much more to say. In one word, you have pretty well described what some of us have been trying to say. The only other thing I would think to add to that is "Obscure".

[IanBorthwick]

Throughout my life there has been one central theme to the value I would ascribe to my bisexuality. One that is pure, simply spiritual and heartachingly clear.

Love Unrepentantly

[void()]

"I thought that "tolerance" might have been a good start. I think that is valued by some on this site. Others give it lip service and turn around and show vindictiveness towards some bisexuals who do not live up to their morality. Enough written. I'm so very disappointed in this site at the moment."

Tolerance is fine when folks admit responsibility and do not use crutches. And yes, I have seen both happen. I also understand there is not only black and white. But if one is a cruel jerk or acts like one, and asks for a blessing, that is beyond tolerance.

Supposing for sake of argument I kill a family. At trial I claim being diabetic and state the disease forced me to kill that family. How likely am I to be acquitted and exonerated, simply because "oh poor him, he's diabetic"? And it is the same with those using "crutches" of any kind. I have used crutches as well but came to realize they cause more harm than good, and now forgo using them.

Again there is not only black and white and I'm human the same as the next. That isn't an excuse or crutch but statement of fact. We all may commit errors. Fine. But to suggest you get a free pass on it because you are x,y, or z is malarkey.

vin·dic·tive (vn-dktv) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

1. Disposed to seek revenge; revengeful.
2. Marked by or resulting from a desire to hurt; spiteful.


vindictive adjective
/vɪnˈdɪk.tɪv/ adj disapproving
having or showing a wish to harm someone because you think that they have harmed you; unwilling to forgive

I am not any of this, tenni. Sorry to disappoint you.

[tenni]

Void re post #35

There are belief structures in place. Belief structures are connected to values when determining what is moral and what is immoral. To place restrictions (crutches?) on what is tolerated is basing this tolerance on beliefs and values.

It is a moral decision to state that a man performing oral sex on another man's penis is wrong regardless of the reasons (crutch?). It is a moral decision to state that a bisexual man who performs oral sex on a another man's penis without his partner's permission is wrong regardless of the reasons (crutch?). To hold one of these moral decisions as wrong while claiming the other as correct is to possibly hold a double standard or be basing these decisions on values and beliefs. It would seem that a bisexual would be basing these decisions on both a mainstream (heterosexual) value /belief system in one case and rejecting the mainstream (heterosexual) belief /value system to prevent self hatred in the other.

When a man performs oral sex on another man's penis without permission of his partner and decides that he has made a moral error after a long process through counselling is the counselling a crutch? He confesses to his partner and this ends in divorce. He is condemned by heterosexuals and bisexuals for his actions (which are not humble/repentful enough for some bisexuals). His partner's counsellor tells him that he must tell his 18 year old offspring that he is bisexual and has had sex with men which is the cause of the divorce. He is condemned by others who are not bisexual for doing as the counsellor instructed. He is called a name (via a question) by a heterosexual that if a gay man used this term might be called a troll and said to be violating the "rules". Bisexuals state that this is appropriate and not done to hurt the bisexual man or being spiteful.

What values are these bisexuals using? What form of tolerance are they using? What crutch is being used to proclaim these actions as just and not vengeful? ("I'm a parent and know what to do with children more than a professional counsellor" seems to be the crutch to rationalize name calling of a bisexual) How is the stated bisexual man using a crutch and not taking responsibility?

Beliefs are being used to moralize in the above scenario. One question is whether these belief structures are based upon a mainstream society (heterosexually based values) or a bisexual belief structure to proclaim one moral action as just and the other as unjust?