School Strips Transgender Teen Of Homecoming King Title

[badgrrl448]

Grrrrr.....still so much hatred out there....

http://jezebel.com/5648874/school-strips-transgender-teen-of-homecoming-king-title

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Well of course they made the decision so close to the dance, that way nothing could be done about it and they would have Their way on it. Assholes..:(
Cat

[Canticle]

What a shame for young Oak, who seems like such a nice young man and how right the students are, to be angry. They voted and then their votes are seen to count for nothing, just because the school officialdom, has to go by the book and declare the choice, of Oak, as Homecoming King, null and void.

You would have thought, that if Oak was thought of as male, by teachers and students and addressed as, he, him his etc and allowed to wear male clothing for band and graduation (and presumably, for everyday wear)...then he should have already been re-registered at the school, as male.

Probably not so much hatred on behalf of the school officials, as ''Oh, it's more than our jobs are worth, to offend the powers that be, higher up the line of officialdom''

Well, the students know who they voted for and who they wanted and the poor young man who finally got lumbered with the title, is probably feeling very uncomfortable about the whole thing.

A great shame....all round.

[littlerayofsunshine]

That is an utter shame. I hope for the best. But It's going to be a hard row.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Ha. This is great news. So what that the petty administration overruled the students. That the students elected a trans guy in the first place, and are actively fighting the school, is just awesome. I can't imagine this happening in my old HS, right in NYC, back when I was a student. The times they are a-changing.

We should all join their Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=103699403028170) to show support.

[Pasadenacpl2]

That's a great viewpoint. Way to find the silver lining!

Pasa

[bisexual Bill]

It's not hatred or discrimination when this young woman is not male, was not born male, and will never be a man despite all the hormones she takes and elective cosmetic surgery that she gets on her tits and pussy.

She'll always be the female gender both physically and biologically.

[slipnslide]

Ha. This is great news. So what that the petty administration overruled the students. That the students elected a trans guy in the first place, and are actively fighting the school, is just awesome. I can't imagine this happening in my old HS, right in NYC, back when I was a student. The times they are a-changing.

We should all join their Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=103699403028170) to show support.

In all likelihood though a bunch of juvenile high school kids thought it'd be hilarious to vote for the tranny. Then they got upset like kids do when they're told they can't do something.

[Pasadenacpl2]

It's not hatred or discrimination when this young woman is not male, was not born male, and will never be a man despite all the hormones she takes and elective cosmetic surgery that she gets on her tits and pussy.

She'll always be the female gender both physically and biologically.

Oh...you're "that guy."

Good to know.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

In all likelihood though a bunch of juvenile high school kids thought it'd be hilarious to vote for the tranny. Then they got upset like kids do when they're told they can't do something.

Or they were sincere, and got upset when they were told the school wasn't going to honor the results of an election.

Having worked in a high school for a decade, the latter is a much more likely scenario.

Pasa

[Canticle]

It's not hatred or discrimination when this young woman is not male, was not born male, and will never be a man despite all the hormones she takes and elective cosmetic surgery that she gets on her tits and pussy.

She'll always be the female gender both physically and biologically.


I was going to give this very crude and unfeeling post, a rather more erudite reply, but I have decided that it is not worthy of one.

[Thomas_The_Rhymer]

Wow...that's awesome how the students are supporting him! That would never happen in Tennessee though...they fired our hs choir teacher when they found out he was gay on the trumped up charge he was flirting with male students...I can't imagine what would happen to a trans-gender person!
Everyone needs to take a deep breath and step into the twenty-first century!

[Long Duck Dong]

looking at the issue, what I see is simple black and white... the student is listed as a female, the home coming king is male.......

why has the student not had his sexuality changed to male if they ID as male...

but no, the school is wrong again, they allowed the student to dress as male, present as male, but when the school enforces one thing, the home coming king is to be a male, they are wrong cos a student listed as female is elected for a role that is a role for a male......

and suddenly its transphobia cos the student has not had their own gender identity changed..... how is it transphobia if the school is saying a female student that presents as a male, is not eligible to furfill a male role in the school

remember constance macmillan.... she wanted to wear a tux to the prom.... and freedom of expression was denied.... while this student had freedom of expression, they were granted permission to wear male clothing, be addressed as male etc etc etc so they already had what they wanted........
but the FAILURE to change the gender identity from female to male is the root cause of this......

but lets remedy it and take it to court.....

then we can have your home coming queen, who is either female or male and may or may not be a trans person and your home coming king who may or may not be a male and may or may not a trans person that is transistioning......

then we could do away with the home coming king / queen roles as they are discriminating against students that will never get elected and cos it will cause emotional pain and suffering.....

then we should get rid of the prom as its a center for degrading students that can not afford good prom outfits and may be the victims of humilation by other students ignoring them and not dancing with them, as its the students rights to dance at the prom.....

then we should remove grades cos its degrading to students that struggle academically, and replace it in a structured system that means that the students can not fail to pass their school certs but be graded in accordance with their skills, cos its degarding to students that are not academically skilled ( in nz, thats happened, its called the NCEA system.... and its been revealed that the average student would never pass the school cert levels of the 1980's, we dumbed down the system instead of encouraging students to strive for a better education )

[DareMe]

Grrrrr.....still so much hatred out there....

http://jezebel.com/5648874/school-strips-transgender-teen-of-homecoming-king-title

I am not convinced hatred is prevalent here, but I am quite certain that ignorance is prevailing!

DM

[NotLostJustWandering]

looking at the issue, what I see is simple black and white... the student is listed as a female, the home coming king is male.......

why has the student not had his sexuality changed to male if they ID as male...

but no, the school is wrong again, they allowed the student to dress as male, present as male, but when the school enforces one thing, the home coming king is to be a male, they are wrong cos a student listed as female is elected for a role that is a role for a male......


Sorry, LDD, but I fail to see the slightest significance to the "issues" you are raising. So the teen is "officially" female, SO WHAT??? I doubt very much that the school would face any legal, or any other serious consequences for allowing a TG student to be Homecoming King. For Christ's sakes, Homecoming King is not President of the United States.

I am sure the school will be presenting your argument as a bureaucratic defense of their obvious transphobia; what else can they do?

I very much doubt the school has a procedure for changing a student's official gender, anyway.




then we should remove grades cos its degrading to students that struggle academically, and replace it in a structured system that means that the students can not fail to pass their school certs but be graded in accordance with their skills, cos its degarding to students that are not academically skilled ( in nz, thats happened, its called the NCEA system.... and its been revealed that the average student would never pass the school cert levels of the 1980's, we dumbed down the system instead of encouraging students to strive for a better education )

Actually, there are excellent reasons for abolishing the grade system, and many alternate approaches to education than the brainwashing system that is the norm the world over. But this takes us far off-topic, and since you have already made up your mind that abolishing grades is unthinkable, I'm not going to argue the point with you.

But then again, you might be totally right and I may be totally wrong. I'd say the odds of that are fifty-fifty, heh heh heh. :devil:

[NotLostJustWandering]

In all likelihood though a bunch of juvenile high school kids thought it'd be hilarious to vote for the tranny.

If that's the case, than what the students did was say "fuck you" to a stupid ritual that imposes heteronormativity on people whose sexuality is just beginning to blossom. All the more reason to support the students, I say.

[AidanS57]

Maybe I'm missing something and I full admit I am not up to date on Trans issues because that's just not my cup of tea. Oak is allowed to dress as a boy, he was called by male pronouns by teachers, yet he entered a competition on Facebook to be Homecoming King. Was this an official school thing? Was he approved to enter, did he have to register for it at the school? At what point was the school aware Oak was entering and why were records checked at that point to certify gender? Were there complaints from other students and parents?

[Long Duck Dong]

Sorry, LDD, but I fail to see the slightest significance to the "issues" you are raising. So the teen is "officially" female, SO WHAT??? I doubt very much that the school would face any legal, or any other serious consequences for allowing a TG student to be Homecoming King. For Christ's sakes, Homecoming King is not President of the United States.

I am sure the school will be presenting your argument as a bureaucratic defense of their obvious transphobia; what else can they do?

I very much doubt the school has a procedure for changing a student's official gender, anyway.



Actually, there are excellent reasons for abolishing the grade system, and many alternate approaches to education than the brainwashing system that is the norm the world over. But this takes us far off-topic, and since you have already made up your mind that abolishing grades is unthinkable, I'm not going to argue the point with you.

But then again, you might be totally right and I may be totally wrong. I'd say the odds of that are fifty-fifty, heh heh heh. :devil:

so I am curious, is the person, male or female by defination at the school.... do they use the male bathrooms or the female......

cos if they use the female bathroom, that is for females only, then despite appearances, they must be female, as listed on school records..... cos males would use the male bathrooms as they are for males......

unless we use the argument that they are trans and therefore they can be female, but protray as a male, and use the female bathrooms and be allowed to be elected to a male role at the prom

if that is the case, we are awarding dual rights to a single gender person.... and denying the same rights to non trans people........as they are not allowed to use one set of bathrooms for one gender, yet fill roles set aside for the other gender.....


so enlighten me..... is the granting of dual gender rights to one person on the grounds of gender identity, not reverse discrimination against all the other students that are not allow to have dual gender rights?????
and is it acceptable to grant dual rights to one student and deny the same rights to other students

I mean we are talking equal rights here, are we not..... or are we infact talking about special exemption based around gender identity, in which case we need to rethink our fight for equal rights.... cos its clear we can not all be equal

[Long Duck Dong]

If that's the case, than what the students did was say "fuck you" to a stupid ritual that imposes heteronormativity on people whose sexuality is just beginning to blossom. All the more reason to support the students, I say.

btw sexuality is not gender identity..... sexuality is gender attraction, gender identity is how you wish to be seen as and what gender you feel you truely are.......

so it has nothing to do to hetero anything.....

[12voltman59]

I don't know if the actions of the school officials is motivated so much out of hatred of trans people--its more a matter of those who tend to rise to the top of education administration tend to be a pretty fearful and anal retentive lot. They also tend to be very much supporters of "status quo" thinking and such too. They are very much sticklers for "those are the rules and we have to always follow the rules" types too.

No doubt they were most uncomfortable with Oak winning the title of homecoming king and since they were uncomfortable about it--they really didn't want to let him serve in that role---irrespective of the fact the students voted him to win.

Since the rules say that the homecoming king has to be a person who is registered as a male on the rolls--they have done their duty to protect the rules by disallowing him to serve as Homecoming King. They can sleep well knowing they preserved the rules, the status quo and norms of society that say that things like trans people are weird, freaky and worst of all---"OOOOOO SCARY!!!"

My God--it took years for school officials in many places to allow Rock and Roll music to be played at school dances---and to allow interracial hetero dating at proms---ooo-forgot--someplaces still have seperate proms for black and white (hetero only) students--but I digress.

It is surely gonna take 'em awhile to get comfortable with the notion of gay couples going to school functions and of course---trans people too.

As has been noted----the role of homecoming kings and queens is not some official thing--merely something ceremonial in nature and more of a fun thing for kids at a football game and related dance--so it really should not matter who fills those roles as long as the kids voted in the person irrespective of what they are.

But since mass education in our society has always been about in part of instilling in young people with the unwritten but widely accepted "rules" regarding how we structure society and how people "should be"---that its all about mating up (with a partner of the opposite sex ONLY), having kids, going to work, paying mortgages and such---they do have to protect the status quo. Education is about trying to shape and mold people to fit into the roles that society deems for them---it surely doesn't reflect--in real time-the realities of the world as it is--its always a few generations behind in that---it tries to help impose "the way things should be."

Well--in this case-the school officials can safely hide behind the fact that they "protected the rules" by god-even though they sure flubbed royally another "teachable moment" as is so popular a thing to say in such situations these days----they showed what they think about the value of voting and democracy (they didn't give a rat's ass about that one!!)------a far more important lesson to learn over the one of "we are merely following the rules" as far as I am concerned but then again--maybe that is reality in that in this brave new world--it really is all about--"shut up and follow the rules no matter what."

Bearing all this in mind---is anyone really all that shocked that the school officials in that district took such action?????

You can surely be angry or upset about it--but not surprised at this sort of thing.

[NotLostJustWandering]

None of us know the teen's biological gender. He may be hermaphroditic. If that's the case, what's all this talk about "dual rights" worth? People who fall between the gender cracks are truly strangers in a binary gender world.

But enough from me. We have some TG people here; I'd like to hear what they have to say.

[Long Duck Dong]

I am intersex..... that is part male, part female in genetic and biological make up...... so I should be allowed to take both roles of male and female .....

and thats serious, not a joke.....

but at the end of the day.... I am not playing games at school, I went to school to learn and gain a education as that sets up my future..... I am starting to wonder if some kids are looking around the school for ways to create issues, so they can go to court and sue, and get on the ellen show and get internments etc and get set up that way..........

again, all I am wondering, is why did the student leave their id as female when pursing a male gender role, both as the prom king and as a male student at the school...... or is it a case as they are listed legally as a female and the option is not available for them to legally change their gender

in nz, if I was a female and I protrayed myself as a male and used that to gain a advantage.... it would be classed as attempted fraud by deception.... a illegal act.......
but over here we have the legal covering that a person can be registared as transgender so it covers them against that......
not sure how it is in the us.... but I would say there is more to this story than we know at this stage........ and thats why it amuses me that the school is being judged so harshly by people that do not have all the facts of the matter

[NotLostJustWandering]

Oy. :rolleyes: I did say "enough from me" but this is too absurd to not comment on...


I am intersex..... that is part male, part female in genetic and biological make up.....

How? As in having X and Y chromosomes?!

Sorry, dude, but I think you're really shitting us this time. I can't see any genuinely transgendered person complaining about TG people being able to use either restroom. It's as insightful as that comment we sometimes get from gays: "oh, you're bisexual. Lucky you, twice as many opportunities."



again, all I am wondering, is why did the student leave their id as female when pursing a male gender role, both as the prom king and as a male student at the school......

Maybe Oak felt female in his freshman year, and then shifted. Lots of TG people talk about having their sense of gender identity shift over time. I'm surprised you didn't know that, you being fifty-fifty and all... :tongue:

And if I must repeat myself, I doubt very much the school has a gender change form to fill out.


in nz, if I was a female and I protrayed myself as a male and used that to gain a advantage.... it would be classed as attempted fraud by deception.... a illegal act.......
but over here we have the legal covering that a person can be registared as transgender so it covers them against that......

If they have made "transgender" a legal status in the Benighted States, it's news to me. Every single form I have ever filled out had only two check boxes for "sex."

Now, can we please have some input from some REAL transgendered people?

[Long Duck Dong]

I never said I was transgender...... I am intersex, they are two totally different conditions

trans gender people have a gender identity issue, intersex people are born with aspects of both genders and its a condition we can not fix with surgery and counselling as it would require our entire DNA to be altered......

now of course you will not see a trans gender person complaining about using both toliets..... what you will see is trans people that are listed as one gender, seeking to use the toilets of the other gender and crying transphobia when anybody develops a issue with it........

but you will not hear a non trans person cry nontransphobia if they use the opposite toilets to their gender, but you can hear calls of pervert and sexual predator........

most guys have no reason to be in the ladies toilets, and that is how most people see a male2female trans in the ladies toilets.......

ask most ladies if they would be fine with males in the ladies toilets..... and they will tell you that they would be curious as to what is going on, is the person really a trans, or a person that gets off dressing in ladies clothing and hanging around ladies toilets........ and they do exist.....

as for the 2 gender check box.... its cos trans ID as one gender or the other.... trans is not a gender, its a state of being..... transistioned is the change completed, transistioning is the changes taking place..... female or male, is the gender, former or current......

learn about transpeople before you take me on........ cos you clearly lack understanding of trans gender people

[Long Duck Dong]

I have done some reading.... the students were asked and told that they were allowed to cast 2 votes, one for a female and one for a male......

the votes were made invalid, not cos of oak being transgender, but cos the students cast invalid votes......

its a bit like a general us election, you can not vote for a demo to represent the repub party...... as that would be a invalid vote......

the fact that a trans person listed as female asked for people to cast the male vote for them, doesn't make it transphobic, it makes the votes invalid..... and there currently is NO reports or reference of oak or the students asking for permission and the right to cast their votes for oak

again, no record of anybody asking for permission to cast their male vote for a female....... if they did and were denied, then I would treat the matter differently......

and if it comes out that permission was sought and denied, then yes I will view the matter differently

[NotLostJustWandering]

I never said I was transgender...... I am intersex, they are two totally different conditions

trans gender people have a gender identity issue, intersex people are born with aspects of both genders and its a condition we can not fix with surgery and counselling as it would require our entire DNA to be altered......

Well, I'm sorry I accused you of pulling our legs on this one. I do understand the difference between the intersexual and TG conditions, and I am aware that they can overlap, that a person's sense of gender identity/physicality clash can come from not being entirely one gender on the physical level on the first place. Reading your post a second time I see I misinterpreted your point about being intersexual. I thought you were countering my call for the TG people to speak by claiming the ability to put yourself in their shoes. That's why I came back in rebuttal mode. Sorry about that, too.


now of course you will not see a trans gender person complaining about using both toliets..... what you will see is trans people that are listed as one gender, seeking to use the toilets of the other gender and crying transphobia when anybody develops a issue with it........

I actually still don't get why you bring up this thing about the toilets in the context of the Homecoming King story. I am inferring that you are annoyed with TG people in general and feel that they are using their condition to gain extra rights and maybe break rules the rest of us have to follow. Is that correct? Is there a point I'm missing?



as for the 2 gender check box.... its cos trans ID as one gender or the other.... trans is not a gender, its a state of being..... transistioned is the change completed, transistioning is the changes taking place..... female or male, is the gender, former or current......

learn about transpeople before you take me on........ cos you clearly lack understanding of trans gender people

You might well understand them better than me. My knowledge is based mostly on stuff I've read. I've only personally known one openly TG person, and as much as he explained it to me, I could never really get it. He saw himself as a woman, he struck me as a man, not only in his body but his vibe. An effeminate gay man, to be sure, but nothing like a real woman. It struck me as a strange delusion, much as I wanted to be totally accepting of him and his view of himself.

So, about the check boxes: I imagine that if I identified as a female, I would also be living with the knowledge that I was physically male and would feel a certain oppression every time I was confronted with those two check boxes, wanting to check the female but knowing there could be trouble if I didn't check the male. I imagine that I would want a third or fourth option, or for the question to not be there. But then again on the other hand, maybe if I was TG I would just check off the female box and say "fuck you" to anyone who would suggest I check anything else.

Bottom line is, I just don't know how I would feel because I'm not TG, and though I have a conceptual understanding of transgender issues, on a certain level I just don't get it, can only stretch my imagination so far as to what it would be like to still have my body and feel female. This is why I feel so uncomfortable that we're having this discussion without any of the TG people here participating.

[NotLostJustWandering]

btw sexuality is not gender identity..... sexuality is gender attraction, gender identity is how you wish to be seen as and what gender you feel you truely are.......

so it has nothing to do to hetero anything.....

Yes, it does have to do with heteronormativity, because heteronormativity does not allow room for TG people. The idea that anything other than heterosexual orientation and behavior is less than normal assumes that gender is an unchanging, unambiguous thing.

I do, however, think maybe I was being too harsh on the Homecoming King and Queen ritual.

[Long Duck Dong]

the trouble with the case, is how we see it and how we apply thinking to it

most trans would say that they want to be treated the same as everybody else, no different.......
but, with oak being listed as a female, and applying for a male role in the school, they are saying, they want to be treated differently to the other students and have the rules applied differently

that is where the conflict is.....

the other non trans students have to follow the rules, one vote for male, one vote for female, based around listed gender at the school, not perceived gender.....so all students are treated equally by that rule........

oak wants the right for students to be able to vote in a different way... one vote for female, one vote for male, one vote for people that are one gender and ID as another gender......

but that rises the issue of oak is not being treated the same as other students, they are asking for rights to be accorded to them and that is the right to have a dual gender role at the school

by dual gender role, I am referring to the usage and opportunity to use different areas of the school that are gender specific, such as toilets, sports teams, social groups, support and counselling, and medical care.......( medical care in NZ may be different in the us, but in nz, any male medical specialist must have a attending female present when dealing with a female patient... and even ambulance crews attending accidents, have to have a mixed crew if there is a injured female involved )

but all that aside, I still come back to what conversations took place between oak and the school administration over the voting etc, BEFORE the voting took place.....
did oak make any attempt to check to see what the stance was by the school and remedy it before the voting decision was made clear to students....

or did oak just decide that the rules in place did not apply to them, without consulting the school admin.... and now plays the victim card, cos votes were ruled invalid ........
I can see another school admin and board getting slammed as transphobic....for not applying the rules differently to one person....

[Long Duck Dong]

Yes, it does have to do with heteronormativity, because heteronormativity does not allow room for TG people. The idea that anything other than heterosexual orientation and behavior is less than normal assumes that gender is an unchanging, unambiguous thing.


can i blame heteronormativity for the fact that I was born part male, part female..... as I fall outside of the norm of society, I am not male or female but a hybrid by way of genetics and biology.....

I am subject to the laws and rules of the male assigned gender roles as that is my primary appearance, but I am not...... so can i blame heteronormativity for the fact that I can not use females and males toilets equally, that I can be excluded from females groups and female health care
and all that cos there is no gender listing for intersex people...... so I was listed according to my primary gender of male and that denies me rights i should have as a intersex person as I am part male, part female in reality

[transcendMental]

can i blame heteronormativity for the fact that I was born part male, part female..... as I fall outside of the norm of society, I am not male or female but a hybrid by way of genetics and biology.....

I am subject to the laws and rules of the male assigned gender roles as that is my primary appearance, but I am not...... so can i blame heteronormativity for the fact that I can not use females and males toilets equally, that I can be excluded from females groups and female health care
and all that cos there is no gender listing for intersex people...... so I was listed according to my primary gender of male and that denies me rights i should have as a intersex person as I am part male, part female in reality

How you were born is not the fault of heteronormativity.

But yes, it is to blame for society not getting you, and for not having a toilet situation that makes you comfortable and proper health care and other rights that most other people enjoy take for granted.

[Long Duck Dong]

so we blame society for not conforming to us, while we want society to accept us as just a part of society....

remember its easy to do that on a individual group / person level, but there is not a hope in hell we can cater for all groups and people and apply rules equally..... and when we fix one thing, we create another set of issues....

the point I am making is we have male / female and unisex toilets..... so the best option is to remove all male / female toilets and only have unisex toilets.....as that removes any issues of gender discrimination.... BUT it then creates issues of privacy invasion and people invading our own personal space.....

with the school, remove the rule of one vote male and one vote female... and replace it with a new rule, two votes for anybody, no restrictions.... that way we can have a gay / les prom, interracial, trans and non trans prom kings and queens..... but we also need to remove the king and queen label as they can be gender offensive ...... so lets have prom person and prom person....

that will create a situation of equal status, and no discrimination against gender, sexuality or personal identity...... as we all want equal rights and anti discrimination

but the standard reaction, is * do not be a stupid bloody idiot, we do not need to go that far *.........

ok, then lets go back to the drawing board and create inequal rights and creating a different area of discrimination while decrying discrimination on the grounds of gender and sexuality and demanding equal rights and treatment for all.......

[transcendMental]

oak wants the right for students to be able to vote in a different way... one vote for female, one vote for male, one vote for people that are one gender and ID as another gender......


I am sick of this language, and will not treat with you while you continue it. You must know better, if you claim to know about transgender issues.

Oak is the same gender as he identifies: male. Look at his picture. He's male. He's even kinda cute for a guy.

He is, however, a different sex than what is typical for his gender, or vice versa, if you prefer.

He wants to be treated the same as any other male in the school, and not be discriminated against just because he was born with a vagina. I would think an intersexed person would get that.

But you consistently (whether intentional or not) conflate sex, gender, and sexuality, when you clearly know better. Just knock it off.

[transcendMental]

My knowledge is based mostly on stuff I've read. I've only personally known one openly TG person, and as much as he explained it to me, I could never really get it. He saw himself as a woman, he struck me as a man, not only in his body but his vibe. An effeminate gay man, to be sure, but nothing like a real woman. It struck me as a strange delusion, much as I wanted to be totally accepting of him and his view of himself.


Atiq, I really appreciate your support and compassion. I know it's hard for others to understand what transsexuals go through. I find the biological explanations easiest to understand and ingest. Males and females have differently-structured brains. Biologists have known that for years. Among other differences, male brains are structured to process large amounts of testosterone, whereas female brains are structured to process large amounts of estrogen. In effectively all species where there are males and females, sometimes (due to congenital factors in utero) a male brain develops with a female structure or vice versa. This affects not only hormone reception (which is enough to drive us slowly insane, since our bodies don't create the hormone that our brains need), but also gender identity, which mounting evidence points to residing in our brain structure as well. When this happens in any species, scientists have observed cross-gender behavior (i.e., gendered behavior that differs from what you'd expect from a member of the observed sex).

This explanation doesn't really get at our subjective experience ("what it's like"), but it gives you fuel for understanding. For getting "what it's like", I still love the anecdote about a mom talking to her 7-year-old about a book she was reading about a transsexual teen. Her daughter didn't understand her explanation, so she told her to close her eyes, and asked her whether she was a girl or a boy. Her daughter said she was a girl. Her mom asked "how do you know? you can't see yourself." The girl responded that she didn't know how she knew, she just did. Her mom asked "what if you opened your eyes and saw that you had a boy's body?" The girl replied "that would be terrible!" Her mom told her "well, that's what this person feels like all the time."

What else do you want to know how we feel about? Of course I think Oak should be able to be Homecoming King. To me, it's not a matter of the votes, it's a matter of what should even be theoretically possible. The school doesn't really object because he didn't have legimate votes. It's pretty clear they object because they consider him female. But it sounds like everyone has accepted him as a male, except for the school administration. Which, yes, does make them the assholes here.

tm

[Long Duck Dong]

What else do you want to know how we feel about? Of course I think Oak should be able to be Homecoming King. To me, it's not a matter of the votes, it's a matter of what should even be theoretically possible. The school doesn't really object because he didn't have legimate votes. It's pretty clear they object because they consider him female. But it sounds like everyone has accepted him as a male, except for the school administration. Which, yes, does make them the assholes here.

tm

did you miss the part where the school allowed oak to dress as a male and be addressed as a male.......
so you feel the school admin are not accepting him as a male and allowing him to be seen as a male and calling the school admin, assholes......?????

yet again, the school board is wrong for allowing oak to be who he is.... and also applying the rules equally to all students.......
but oak is not at fault for not taking the issue to the school admin before the voting was started and getting the criteria changed so oak was eligible....


got it...... the school are transphobic assholes that should deal with issues with trans students that the school didn't know about until after the fact......

[Long Duck Dong]

I am sick of this language, and will not treat with you while you continue it. You must know better, if you claim to know about transgender issues.

Oak is the same gender as he identifies: male. Look at his picture. He's male. He's even kinda cute for a guy.

He is, however, a different sex than what is typical for his gender, or vice versa, if you prefer.

He wants to be treated the same as any other male in the school, and not be discriminated against just because he was born with a vagina. I would think an intersexed person would get that.

But you consistently (whether intentional or not) conflate sex, gender, and sexuality, when you clearly know better. Just knock it off.

just cos I was born intersex, doesn't mean that I should be under a seperate set of rules to you, to not lost, to DD, to any other person

I should abide by the same rules as everybody else..... and treated the same as everybody else, even tho I am different to the average male and female and I am not trans.......

so do not tell me I should know better, when I am a person that can never be a male or a female, unless I live according to the gender ID guidelines that society and trans people use to define their existence.....
trans can be male or female...... I can not transistion to male or female as I am both and neither........
so if trans think they have it hard, they want to walk in my shoes.....I slip between the cracks when trans can walk one side of the path or the other

[Ms Baby]

@ Notlostjustwandering...

I just checked Dictionary.com... "Heteronormativity" is NOT a recognized word, according to them.

Doncha just love it when people make up "Two-Dollar-Words" to show others how smart they are?


Gerri

[NotLostJustWandering]

@ Notlostjustwandering...

I just checked Dictionary.com... "Heteronormativity" is NOT a recognized word, according to them.

Give them time. For now, you can look it up on Urban Dictionary:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=heteronormative

I didn't invent the term. It's been in use on this site and elsewhere in the queer community.


Doncha just love it when people make up "Two-Dollar-Words" to show others how smart they are?

Gerri

Ain't it amusing when newbies elbow for status and only succeed in parading their ignorance?

[elian]

If the students voted for him and he won, then he ought to be king. By how much of a margin did he win? Are they concerned that students who DIDN'T want him to be king will retaliate with violence? I wonder why his student record wasn't updated?

[Paragon]

Oh...you're "that guy."

Good to know.

Pasa

Oh, Pasa, you're THAT guy...slash gal. gtk.

[elian]

I see - as far as the school record goes the school is going by the physical characteristics, not by how he identifies, For some reason I thought he had been through reassignment surgery.

Well I still stand by my answer regarding the votes - neat that the student body can be so supportive - the rural high school I went to would not have been so kind.

[darkeyes]

Once.. not so long ago.. there was no realistic prospect of a female becoming queen if she had a male sibling of any description (on right side of the sheets that is).. was big or lil bro who became king.. now though, the eldest child becomes king or queen irrespective of gender...now I know this isnt the same thing.. its trivia and fun I suppose for the kids.. but isn't it about time in the land of the free, gender was taken out of the occasion?

.. mind you.. can imagine the hoo ha if Willie boy decided to becum Wilhelmina or Harry Henrietta.. think either they would commit, assassinate or just make them quietly disappear..

I know I'm being flippant and don't understand the ways and workings of US school trivia, but it is something to think about..

[Diva667]

Recently went to see "Faces and Facets of Transgender Experience". We heard the story of one family whose child (age 8) is living full time as female. The child was already emulating female actions at age 4.

She related her experience of trying to forceher child to live as a male, there were serious problems, major depression and jealousy of her older sister.

When she finally allowed her daughter to transition theschool told her not to communicate the fact that she was transgender to anyone. They then went on an anti ullying campaign. This did not turn out well. At first the kids were welcoming, later when the parents started talking about it, she was shunned by all kids in her school. She had no friends at that point, and was very depresed.

The familly moved to a more accepting community and school district. The daughter was alowed to speakopenly of her transgender nature, and was in fact encouraged to be part ofthe diversity day that the school holds yearly. Not the star of it, but just one more facet. (I.e. "We have people from india, native americans and a transgender student.") She is much happier, and she has many friends there.

My point is that children (less than 18 yo) are not allowed to transition, therefore not allowed to change their gender legally, as that generally requires surgey and letters stating that they have completed such.

Therefore students, such as the one in the article, are in a kind of double bind. They can't legaly transistion no matter how sure they are of their gender. Therefore the school, and all legal authorities, can treat them as their birth sex. It's not right. Because it isnt a lark, not a choice. Just as schools have been forced in recent years to make improvements to allow for persons with disabilities, so should they make adjustments for transkids.

The school adiminstration could have handled this in a better manner than they did.

For those of you interested in learning more -
http://www.imatyfa.org/transparentjourneys/index.html

[transcendMental]

Recently went to see "Faces and Facets of Transgender Experience". We heard the story of one family whose child (age 8) is living full time as female. The child was already emulating female actions at age 4.

She related her experience of trying to forceher child to live as a male, there were serious problems, major depression and jealousy of her older sister.

When she finally allowed her daughter to transition theschool told her not to communicate the fact that she was transgender to anyone. They then went on an anti ullying campaign. This did not turn out well. At first the kids were welcoming, later when the parents started talking about it, she was shunned by all kids in her school. She had no friends at that point, and was very depresed.

The familly moved to a more accepting community and school district. The daughter was alowed to speakopenly of her transgender nature, and was in fact encouraged to be part ofthe diversity day that the school holds yearly. Not the star of it, but just one more facet. (I.e. "We have people from india, native americans and a transgender student.") She is much happier, and she has many friends there.

My point is that children (less than 18 yo) are not allowed to transition, therefore not allowed to change their gender legally, as that generally requires surgey and letters stating that they have completed such.

Therefore students, such as the one in the article, are in a kind of double bind. They can't legaly transistion no matter how sure they are of their gender. Therefore the school, and all legal authorities, can treat them as their birth sex. It's not right. Because it isnt a lark, not a choice. Just as schools have been forced in recent years to make improvements to allow for persons with disabilities, so should they make adjustments for transkids.

The school adiminstration could have handled this in a better manner than they did.

For those of you interested in learning more -
http://www.imatyfa.org/transparentjourneys/index.html

ty for sharing that, Diva.

It's wonderful when non-transpeople get it and can demonstrate that they get it.

[Long Duck Dong]

My point is that children (less than 18 yo) are not allowed to transition, therefore not allowed to change their gender legally, as that generally requires surgey and letters stating that they have completed such.

Therefore students, such as the one in the article, are in a kind of double bind. They can't legaly transistion no matter how sure they are of their gender. Therefore the school, and all legal authorities, can treat them as their birth sex. It's not right. Because it isnt a lark, not a choice. Just as schools have been forced in recent years to make improvements to allow for persons with disabilities, so should they make adjustments for transkids.

The school adiminstration could have handled this in a better manner than they did.

For those of you interested in learning more -
http://www.imatyfa.org/transparentjourneys/index.html

thank you for explaining the bind they are in with the legal aspect of transition........

that explains to me why the trans student mentioned in this thread, was still registered as male and not female... its a legal aspect and while the student was a trans male, they were still listed as a female and subject to the guidelines for female students, even when the students and staff ignored that aspect and treated them as male

I am not saying thats right or wrong, just that I understand and it is good to see that other schools are supporting and encouraging diversity acceptance and not pushing the * we are all equal * stance......

the reason I refer to the * we are all equal * stance, is that we are not all equal... we are all unique and that creates difference...... so we should all have the same basic human rights ( employment, health care, education etc ) but we need to be treated differently according to our personal needs and that is where the * all are equal * stance goes sour

its different here in NZ, you can legally go to court and gain the right to transition and legally change your gender on paper, before the age of 18 ( I helped a friend do it ) but here in nz, you also have to prove a genuine case of transgender, and not parents pushing a child to become the gender the parents wanted.......

I also agree that disabled children are catered for and the same should apply to transkids....... tho I also understand things from the medical profession, regarding surgery and hormones ......
I will not argue that aspect as each person is different and puberty is a wildcard and its easier to treat issues in post puberty people than pre puberty as we are better aware of what areas need extended work...... but that does raise the point of the sooner transitioning is done, the better for the person.....

oh what a mine field.....

[elian]

I can imagine the pain of being forced to be something you are not.

At least while I was growing up I never quite measured up to what most people in this area consider "a man". Genuinely concerned parents pushed very hard for me to be a more aggressive and competitive child and that's just not who I am.

Maybe it's a generalization but from a male perspective I've always thought it's a shame that we are pushed to believe that any intimacy and affection between two adult males is wrong. It would be nice if society was just a little less homophobic.

I know the transitional process here in the US is also a slow and deliberate one and unfortunately still carries a lot of stigma. I find it interesting to know that we all essentially start out female but for that one chromosome.

It must be painful having to wait but for someone who is still questioning it might be worthwhile to have it happen gradually. Hopefully through that process you definitely know it's the right thing for you or not.

[transcendMental]

It must be painful having to wait but for someone who is still questioning it might be worthwhile to have it happen gradually. Hopefully through that process you definitely know it's the right thing for you or not.

I have no problem with transsexual children needing to wait until 18 to have surgery. That is a completely non-reversable step, and anybody making that kind of permanent change should be able to make an adult decision about it.

The primary benefit of transition is the social transition, presenting in a manner that is congruent with your gender, and having others interact with you appropriately. This is what should not be held up. And as long as parents are supportive, it doesn't have to be held up.

A name can be changed at any time, and the school system has to honor a court mandated change in name.

As LDD says, hormones are a huge issue. There are MtF adolescents these days who are able to take hormone blockers from age 9 or 10, and prevent facial hair growth, voice change, the male growth spurt and other masculinizing effects of hormones, not to mention the gender dysphoric effect of having all that testosterone in a brain that was designed to run on estrogen. If I had had that, I could have saved thousands of dollars on electrolysis getting rid of my facial hair, and endless worries about "perfecting" my voice (still not thrilled, but it's passable), only to still have to contend with my size and general appearance (again, passable, but passable as a large woman with some masculine features). There are similar advantages for FtM adolescents.

Adolescents these days can, with appropriate parental support, begin taking cross-gender hormones around age 13-14, so that MtFs develop pretty much as women and FtMs develop pretty much as men. In both cases the effects are striking enough to bring anyone who has transitioned in adulthood to tears (while still feeling very happy for these people, of course).

The idea is to introduce more permanent steps slowly, so that the child can be as old as possible when they make each decision to go further. Then when they reach that point of adulthood when they are able to make that final irreversible decision, they have as solid an understanding as possible of their gender, and can make that decision based on the best possible information.

Bit of a side-track there. But the idea is that all of this can be and is done. The problem is with the only legal designations for gender being based on a person's genitalia. When a person named Christine who looks and acts exactly like a young woman is refused by the school system the rights of woman (or when a man named Oak is refused the rights of a man), simply because she was born with a penis (or because he was born with a vagina), I consider that bad behavior.

At least finally in PA now (and MA and some other states for years), gender can be specified on a driver's license based on how you identify (as long as it is verified by a therapist). That to me is civil. I wonder if schools in states would honor that designation. I have my doubts.

tm

[Long Duck Dong]

its hard for trans people to transition and change gender at times...... but as hard as it is for trans..... unbelievably... its even harder for intersex people to change their gender, here in nz

the difference between intersex and trans people, is that generally intersex people do not transition... and in the case of intersex people with dual genitalia, their real gender is not apparent until they hit puberty.......

gender is defined by genitalia, so you can imagine just how hard it is for a intersex person that can be male and female in genitalia but no way of knowing if they are truly female or male in form....

I have known 3 intersex people that have taken their own lives due to issues that are unique to intersex people.... issues that most people could never really comprehend.... even I struggle to relate to the issues.....
but part of the issue is that they are forced to follow the same therapy and counselling agenda as trans people, when in fact they are not trans at all, they are just like cisgender people......

talk about a people that can not just be who they are, as even being who they are, doesn't mean that they are accepted as who they are.... but the gender that they are deemed to be, without the chance to change, without doing something that serves no purpose for them and pushes them to explore aspects of life, that they have no desire to explore......

yet.... we are near invisible in the scheme of things.... we are the intersex... and to many, we are only known as hermaphrodites.....

[man65here]

:2cents:
I read a story of a male to female transgendered person being elected prom queen in a California school district. I spent an hour looking for the story before writing this reply. Can't find it.

That school district didn't have a problem with it, but some parents did. It made the news, but the queen was still the queen.

I don't know if there are rules that say you must be registered as a male or female, but the other students recognized him as male. It was a student election and it was overturned for no good reason.

Support this kid and the other students that elected him. (I do)

[Canticle]

Once.. not so long ago.. there was no realistic prospect of a female becoming queen if she had a male sibling of any description (on right side of the sheets that is).. was big or lil bro who became king.. now though, the eldest child becomes king or queen irrespective of gender...now I know this isnt the same thing.. its trivia and fun I suppose for the kids.. but isn't it about time in the land of the free, gender was taken out of the occasion?

.. mind you.. can imagine the hoo ha if Willie boy decided to becum Wilhelmina or Harry Henrietta.. think either they would commit, assassinate or just make them quietly disappear..

I know I'm being flippant and don't understand the ways and workings of US school trivia, but it is something to think about..

''now though, the eldest child becomes king or queen irrespective of gender...''

Sorry to have to correct you, Fran, but the line of succession to the throne in the United Kingdom, is male dominant and will probably remain so. If this were not the case, then 4th in line to the throne would be The Princess Royal, Princess Anne, when in fact 4th in line to the throne in The Duke of York, Prince Andrew, followed by his daughters.

In Sweden the rules are different (or were). The eldest child becomes monarch, irrespective of gender. The eldest child of King Carl-Gustav is a daughter. After her birth he and his wife had a son. There was talk that he wished the rules of ascendancy changed, allowing for a male dominant succession. In Denmark, the rules of succession were changed, before the present Queen ascended to the throne, for her father had no sons and only males could become monarch.

This is off topic, but I felt that it needed to be pointed out.

There have been some very intelligent and thoughtful posts in this thread and I just hope that the young man elected Homecoming King by his peers, will remain so in their hearts, if not in reality. A great shame that the wishes of other students were not taken into account, when the school stripped him of the title, even if they had no other choice and had been pressured to do so, by beings in ''higher'' places. I reckon the young man, will be a son to be proud of.....and in the greater scheme of things....that is most important....a good son, friend. spouse etc.

[elian]

I remember watching a television program that included the story of a intersexed person whose parents were convinced by a doctor that "corrective surgery" was the best option to "fix" their baby's "birth defect".

The parents tried their best to raise their child as the "intended" gender but the child struggled through a lot of pain. It wasn't until many years later that the person was told the full story of what had happened and finally was able to assume the gender they really identified with.

I guess this is very similar to another thread which shall not be named, life is very complicated sometimes.


its hard for trans people to transition and change gender at times...... but as hard as it is for trans..... unbelievably... its even harder for intersex people to change their gender, here in nz

the difference between intersex and trans people, is that generally intersex people do not transition... and in the case of intersex people with dual genitalia, their real gender is not apparent until they hit puberty.......

gender is defined by genitalia, so you can imagine just how hard it is for a intersex person that can be male and female in genitalia but no way of knowing if they are truly female or male in form....

I have known 3 intersex people that have taken their own lives due to issues that are unique to intersex people.... issues that most people could never really comprehend.... even I struggle to relate to the issues.....
but part of the issue is that they are forced to follow the same therapy and counselling agenda as trans people, when in fact they are not trans at all, they are just like cisgender people......

talk about a people that can not just be who they are, as even being who they are, doesn't mean that they are accepted as who they are.... but the gender that they are deemed to be, without the chance to change, without doing something that serves no purpose for them and pushes them to explore aspects of life, that they have no desire to explore......

yet.... we are near invisible in the scheme of things.... we are the intersex... and to many, we are only known as hermaphrodites.....

[darkeyes]

''now though, the eldest child becomes king or queen irrespective of gender...''

Sorry to have to correct you, Fran, but the line of succession to the throne in the United Kingdom, is male dominant and will probably remain so. If this were not the case, then 4th in line to the throne would be The Princess Royal, Princess Anne, when in fact 4th in line to the throne in The Duke of York, Prince Andrew, followed by his daughters.

In Sweden the rules are different (or were). The eldest child becomes monarch, irrespective of gender. The eldest child of King Carl-Gustav is a daughter. After her birth he and his wife had a son. There was talk that he wished the rules of ascendancy changed, allowing for a male dominant succession. In Denmark, the rules of succession were changed, before the present Queen ascended to the throne, for her father had no sons and only males could become monarch.

This is off topic, but I felt that it needed to be pointed out.



Oops.. soz... I remembered Blair proposing it not long after he became PM (and I was only young and daft after all) and thought legislation had been passed.. shudda checked... so now me not so youing an daft..:eek: o well.. wiv luck we will all have propa jobs by then ne way an we will have a propa head of state in a propa democracy...

Soz for the digression..:(