Is Straight Philandering More Forgivable?

[danreidbarmi]

My wife is a person of consistent values and integrity. She made it clear to me from the get-go that she does not tolerate cheating in a relationship. There is no grey area with her, and she has been highly critical of public figures who have let their overblown egos grab their dicks and run amuck: Tiger Woods, John Edwards, etc.

Last night, I took note of a talk-show discussion involving two such big-persona philanderers (Bill Clinton and David Letterman) discussing at length the state of the economy and the environment. Not a whisper about their dual histories of lying to and cheating on their respective spouses. (This is not judgment, just observation. God knows, I have no right to sit in judgment of anyone.)

I wondered how my wife felt about this, whether she could separate the past behavior of these powerful men from the very important and informative conversation they were having. After all, these men hadn't come forward voluntarily, confessed their indiscretions, and begged for forgiveness. Letterman did the more honorable thing and revealed his serial infidelities, but only after it was clear that his scandal was going to become public anyway. Clinton continued to lie about it, even after getting caught.

While I cannot compare myself or anything I've accomplished thus far to these men, I did come forward to my wife with the whole truth about my closeted sexuality and longterm extra-marital activities. I didn't get caught. In fact, she wasn't even suspicious. Hillary Clinton remains married to Bill. As far as I know, Letterman's marriage has survived as well. I'm sure these guys have spent many a night on the couch, but they've somehow been able to work it out. (Tiger is getting dumped, as is Edwards.)

As I said, I've always known that my wife demanded monogamy, and I was unable to stay true. So, it's looking more and more like my marriage is over. But, I wonder if Clinton and/or Letterman had been cheating with other men, whether their wives would be able to be this forgiving.

[littlerayofsunshine]

I don't think its just a homo/hetero issue. There have been political and religious icons that have had homo extramarital relations and their wives stuck by them and all of it played out publicly also.

[DuckiesDarling]

To answer your question. No. It makes no difference the gender of the other person when their is a break in the trust. There are people who are happy in open relationships, but there are people who can never be happy sharing their lover with someone else. Neither is the ultimate correct way to be and there are shades of gray.

So sorry as LittleRay said, I don't see it as a sexuality issue at all. I see it as trangressions either discovered or confessed and the burden on the partner to forgive, some people may forgive but even if forgiveness is granted, they will never forget.

[Realist]

Failing in a marriage is a little like dying. I know!

Cheating on a mate is something I've done, during one marriage. The guilt and remorse I felt haunted me every day, even though I didn't love that person. Loving your wife makes it even worse than my divorce was, too.

Like The ladies said above, it's the trust that is lost and some can never recover from that.

One thing about it, even though your marriage is probably over, you've learned a powerful lesson. I know I did.

Hopefully, you can move on and maybe develop relationships where you are totally open and honest with whoever you choose to be with....as well as yourself!

Good luck, Dan, you're gonna need it!

[tenni]

I think that there are issues beyond the cheating when one participates in extramaritial affairs that are same sex. There is the added shock(?) for the heterosexual wife/husband to deal with. In some respects they may feel double deception if the husband has not disclosed his same sex attraction earlier in the relationship. Even if a man discloses to his wife his same sex attraction, it has been reported here more frequently that heterosexual men are more accepting of their partner having same sex attraction and acting on it than are heterosexual women. There may be multiple reasons why this has been reported here although it is not a universal acceptance. I've read on this site more acceptance of women cheaters than male cheaters involving disclosure. There seems to be more posters inclined to show stronger disapproval of male same sex cheaters than female same sex cheaters. The most vocally vehemently disapproving posters have been men as well although that may be just the particular male posters. Again, there may be several factors involved in this as well. It may be how female cheaters present/describe themselves compared to how men tend to present their indiscretions and how some men rationalize their behaviour. Statistically, studies have reported that infidelity is done by both men and women at some point in their life. The majority of men (60%) will cheat at some point in their life while 40% of women will cheat. Studies have also suggested that men are more inclined to get "caught" or confess than women. Interestingly enough, only one woman on this site admitted to same sex cheating when I asked on another thread. Yet, other women posters have created threads about their infidelity so maybe they felt that they had already disclosed.

From the list that you gave whether the heterosexual wife remains in the marriage after cheating may not be just based on whether the husband has opposite sex or same sex affairs though. It may involve the wife's personal values about remaining in a marriage regardless of what happens. In the Clinton marriage, I've read comments that there has been suspicions that the marriage is based more on political arrangements than fidelity.

[julbug]

its not often I post, but I couldn't help adding my two cents. Every marriage is as different as each person involved in it. If you knew your wife wouldn't accept any type of infidelity than by cheating you have broken her trust and must deal with her decision. Of course she needs to take a hard look at the situation and give you an honest decision, not one just based on emotions. My husband admitted to me he is bi, but only after 10 yrs of marriage. I recently found out he has cheated with a man. Cheating is cheating. I love him regardless and we are trying to work it out. I hope you and your wife can do the same, but please realize her faith in you and herself is on extremely shaky ground. To most women, infidelity is a huge blow, and she may feel as if she is somehow to blame. I wish you the best of luck and hope things work out.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Doesnt matter. Cheating is cheating, plain and simple. Businessman, politition, poor person, doesnt matter. Cheating and lying is the same for Anyone.
Cat

[Nadir]

I am with Cat in what she and everybody else said about "cheating being cheating". However, one must take in note the cultural context in which it is done. For example, if it is done with a person of the same sex, then the heterosexual partner is more likely to suffer from a more severe shock after not only discovering his partner´s infidelity, but also their hidden sexual orientation. Here in Spain, although people are more laid-back than the USA, we are still more narrow-minded in some topics when it comes to sexuality, and, until a few years ago, if you were caught in a same-sex liaison and you were married, then it meant a lot of public shame (especially if you lived in a small town or village) for both you and your husband/wife (people always talked about "how his wife turned lesbian because he couldnt be masculine enough", or "her husband went queer because she is just so annoying..."). Thank God, Spaniards nowadays are more tolerant of people having same-sex relationships (it was one of the first european countries that legalized same-sex marriage, and nowadays, surveys, particularly one made in 2007. show that 82% of Spanish people thinks that it is a normal behaviour that should be accepted by society).

[danreidbarmi]

My husband admitted to me he is bi, but only after 10 yrs of marriage. I recently found out he has cheated with a man. Cheating is cheating. I love him regardless and we are trying to work it out. I hope you and your wife can do the same, but please realize her faith in you and herself is on extremely shaky ground. To most women, infidelity is a huge blow, and she may feel as if she is somehow to blame. I wish you the best of luck and hope things work out.

"Only after 10 yrs?" I really don't see what the difference is here. Why is it that some women seem to need to count? How long is too long? I come up against that question every day. "If it hadn't been going on for so long," she says, "maybe..." (Btw, I really appreciate your feedback here, Julbug - I'm not trying to discount your offering.)

And, I agree with everything that has been said here so far. It should have nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with being faithful. I'm just wondering if hetero cheating is more acceptable by the public at large. As "bisexuality" is so misunderstood - by both straights and gays - how could the unwashed masses have a clue as to how to process Clinton getting a series of blow jobs from a chubby dude instead of a chubette? or, Letterman having liaisons with male underlings instead of the very dyke-ey Stephanie Burkette.

And, because a man (meaning me) decides on his own to come absolutely clean, why is he (me once again) more likely to lose it all? Political expediency aside, to say, "I love you. I thought I was straight when we got married. I'm sorry I haven't been able to stay true, nor can I promise that I will be able to be faithful in the future," seems to have a whole lot more integrity than, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

"I don't want to be 60 and find out that you've fallen in love with a man," my wife says. Here's the deal: In spite of my vows, I could have found myself falling in love with another person, male or female, during any of the last 26 yrs. There is no higher risk now than there was before I came out to her. There is always risk in a committed relationship. Humans are not hard-wired for monogamy, regardless of the vows we take and the feelings we have when we take them.

[bisexual Bill]

Heterosexual cheating in hetero relationships is not more excusable or forgivable.

Straight couples break up all the time because the man or woman cheats.

I'm sure your wife would not have been happy with you if you'd told her how you'd been cheating with women only, instead of just with men.

Most women, hell most people do not want to be in a relationship or a marriage with someone who lies and cheats on them, who they can't trust.

With the celebrities you listed a lot of them do break up because of cheating.

In the case of the Clintons the couple stays together because of power, politics, and a public image. I've heard that Hillary is Lesbian but who knows if this is true?

Bisexuality is not misunderstood by people who are straight, gay men, and lesbian women. Just because they are not bisexual it does not mean that they hate us, do not support bisexuals, or do not understand us at all.

Bisexual is a very mainstream term as much as being gay or lesbian is.

In the case of Larry Craig who was a politician caught cheating on his wife with men. He's a well known gay man and he and his wife probably have a marriage of convenience or something like that.

If you are in a relationship with someone and they think you're monogamous but you're lying and cheating on them, then you do run the risk of losing everything.

Whoever you are in a relationship with that you cheated and lied to runs that risk of losing everything too.

Many humans are hard wired for monogamy and want a monogamous relationship and they and their spouse or partner have no intention of lying and cheating on each other. There is nothing wrong with this.

What's wrong is lying and cheating on a person you are in a relationship with who thinks that you are being monogamous with only them. It is also wrong to expect a partner that wants monogamy to accommodate or excuse their spouses' lying and cheating with more lying and cheating and a forced open relationship they do not want.

[littlerayofsunshine]

Dan, You knew you weren't straight when you married her. In fact you had said you assumed she knew because she was friends with your first wife who knew all the dirt about you (paraphrasing from one of your previous posts). You may have not intended to cheat on her when you first married her. You had also said in a previous post that one of your marriages (its hard to keep up which one since there have been so many) that you and her were both unfaithful. So before this marriage, (A) you knew you had tendencies that were not heterosexual. (B) you knew you had tendencies to be unfaithful.

I am not saying you don't love your wife. But I can't see you as a victim. I get tired of the Martyrdom. and the more I read, the less I would ever read your book. The overzealous use of your descriptions gets repetitive. I mean.. Jeezus. Your talking to people here. But all you sound like is a character. When you write here about yourself and your life. It all sounds fictional. IDK. Maybe its your way of separating the Man that wants to be, from the Man that actually is. It gets a little confusing?


BTW, did you also mention to your wife how you feel more homo than hetero? You also mentioned that in a previous post.

[danreidbarmi]

Wow! So, now even though I've offered a proposition that has nothing to do with me - i.e. an observation I made, a question that occurred to me while I was watching TV one night, I get more lectures on monogamy and how I'm playing the victim? Bi-Bill and Little Ray, is this necessary?

This discussion is not about me or my philandering, my three marriages, my sexuality, or anything I've ever posted before on this site. It's about whether society at large is more accepting of hetero cheating.

And, Bill, if you think that just because "bisexuality" has slipped into the vernacular of our culture that it is understood and/or tolerated, you are living in a dream world. To most men, bisexuality is some porno fantasy: having a threesome with two hot-to-trot chicks. Bisexuality is less understood than homosexuality. Even the vast majority of gay people I've talked to, both close friends and strangers, don't have a clue about what being bi is. They have decided that calling oneself bi is just an excuse for being unfaithful, for using gay partners for sexual gratification, and an inability to honor one's true sexual orientation.

Now, about me...

Little Ray, if I'm coming off as "fictional," and less than genuine, I'm sorry. But, every word I've written here has been straight from my shattered heart. I thought that I was coming out, and that by coming out I would be liberated, freed to live as I am. I was too fucking stupid to realize that my confession was first and foremost one of infidelity, that bisexuality was secondary. That has been a jagged pill to swallow. Not only has my beautiful, wonderful wife's image of me been smashed to bits, my own image of myself has also been destroyed because I have now chosen to be absolutely honest with myself and her.

I was living a lie, a double life. Now, I'm learning day by day. A lot of what I'm learning is from interactions with other people here on this site. This community has been, in fact, a life saver, regardless of the pedantic, redundant, sometimes cruel, and certainly unempathetic words that have been hurled so carelessly and thoughtlessly in my direction. I don't care about that stuff. I'm a big boy and I can take it all. I'm not the victim here, although I am suffering for sure. It's not one day at a time anymore. It's one minute at a time. One minute I want to die. The next I'm able to declare that it's okay, that I'll get through this, and so will my wife.

She and I talk for hours at a time. Sometimes we raise our voices. We cry a lot. But, at least we are communicating about important stuff, about us as a married couple, and about us as individuals. Our marriage is over. We no longer share the same bed. She doesn't wear her ring. I feel uncomfortable and naked taking mine off, even though it has lost its meaning, because of my infidelity and newfound honesty. I could have gone on living a lie. But, that was no longer an option. The truth has set me free - free to hurt like I've never hurt before. I am hurting for two - for my wife and for myself. We are both losing everything we thought we had together - after more than 20 years together. If that sounds fictional and uninteresting, fine. It's my truth, a truth I am now committed to living.

[julbug]

"Only after 10 yrs?" I really don't see what the difference is here. Why is it that some women seem to need to count? How long is too long? I come up against that question every day. "If it hadn't been going on for so long," she says, "maybe..." (Btw, I really appreciate your feedback here, Julbug - I'm not trying to discount your offering.)

And, I agree with everything that has been said here so far. It should have nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with being faithful. I'm just wondering if hetero cheating is more acceptable by the public at large. As "bisexuality" is so misunderstood - by both straights and gays - how could the unwashed masses have a clue as to how to process Clinton getting a series of blow jobs from a chubby dude instead of a chubette? or, Letterman having liaisons with male underlings instead of the very dyke-ey Stephanie Burkette.

And, because a man (meaning me) decides on his own to come absolutely clean, why is he (me once again) more likely to lose it all? Political expediency aside, to say, "I love you. I thought I was straight when we got married. I'm sorry I haven't been able to stay true, nor can I promise that I will be able to be faithful in the future," seems to have a whole lot more integrity than, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

"I don't want to be 60 and find out that you've fallen in love with a man," my wife says. Here's the deal: In spite of my vows, I could have found myself falling in love with another person, male or female, during any of the last 26 yrs. There is no higher risk now than there was before I came out to her. There is always risk in a committed relationship. Humans are not hard-wired for monogamy, regardless of the vows we take and the feelings we have when we take them.

You are right, the amount of time does not matter. He cheated and we need to deal with it. His being bi has nothing to do with how I feel about his cheating. In all honesty, it is easier for me to deal with the fact that he cheated with a man than with a woman. At least I know he was getting something that is not offered at home, a real penis. We are trying to figure out what works best for us.
As for society in general, if you look at politicians who have admitted to homosexual or bisexual affairs, they have been ridiculed and criticized more harshly than those that have had heterosexual affairs. Is it fair, of course not, they all cheated. Public figures, men with power, will always be forgiven more quickly than the average man.
Monogamy is a choice, to fight the natural urges is what makes a marriage difficult. Does a bisexual man have more of a right to cheat than a hetero one, just because he enjoys both sexes? I think it comes down to self control and selfishness.

[tenni]

"Bisexuality is not misunderstood by people who are straight, gay men, and lesbian women. Just because they are not bisexual it does not mean that they hate us, do not support bisexuals, or do not understand us at all.

Bisexual is a very mainstream term as much as being gay or lesbian is."

I would agree that the term is mainstream but the understanding and acceptance or tolerance is not. I would agree that there is more discussion and use of the word bisexual in North American societies almost to the point of being trendy but ..NOT. The trendy aspect may end when it involves a monosexual (hetero or gay) with a bisexual. I don't think that bisexuality is accepted unless the bisexual enters a monogamous heterosexual relationship and doesn't stray. Then, it is ok. There may be some tolerance for bisexuality as long as it remains abstract and doesn't involve a hetero or gay. There just is not an acceptance of sexual fluidity as a societal value, imo.

The point that society is still basically a heterosexual (at least publicly) society does have a stigma against same sex. Why would people who discover their same sex attraction experience stress about it if it was really understood and accepted by the general society? We wouldn't. If/when same sex attraction becomes as common and accepted as being left handed, then I think that the above statement will be correct. Philandering might become tolerated more if the heterosexual value about monogamy was reduced. Because of the double issue, I think that same sex philandering is less tolerated than opposite sex. Cheating is cheating but if it is same sex cheating(and the same sex attraction was not know)...it is a lot worse and more shocking.

"Many humans are hard wired for monogamy and want a monogamous relationship and they and their spouse or partner have no intention of lying and cheating on each other. There is nothing wrong with this."

I wouldn't agree that all/many humans are hardwired for monogamy but that humans are socialized for monogamy. Men are not biologically hardwired for monogamy at all. Men are biologically hardwired to orgasm as many times as possible and as often as possible regardless whether they are with the same person or not. (as the joke goes men will fuck anything that has a hole..not completely true but...lol) It is the socialization for monogamy that creates issues for bisexuals imo.

Dan
A tip for you to consider. You introduce a topic and infer that it is not about you. Then you post a lot of reporting about your life and status of your relationship. I don't have a problem with it but some of it is off topic and may lead people to comment about you personally. just a thought.
Post Actually, I re read Dan's OP. It is mostly about his personal relationship and then moves to a more abstract concept or question.

[littlerayofsunshine]

Wow! So, now even though I've offered a proposition that has nothing to do with me - i.e. an observation I made, a question that occurred to me while I was watching TV one night, I get more lectures on monogamy and how I'm playing the victim? Bi-Bill and Little Ray, is this necessary?

This discussion is not about me or my philandering, my three marriages, my sexuality, or anything I've ever posted before on this site. It's about whether society at large is more accepting of hetero cheating.



Well..... It was.. but then you wrote this response to someone.


"Only after 10 yrs?" I really don't see what the difference is here. Why is it that some women seem to need to count? How long is too long? I come up against that question every day. "If it hadn't been going on for so long," she says, "maybe..." (Btw, I really appreciate your feedback here, Julbug - I'm not trying to discount your offering.)

And, I agree with everything that has been said here so far. It should have nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with being faithful. I'm just wondering if hetero cheating is more acceptable by the public at large. As "bisexuality" is so misunderstood - by both straights and gays - how could the unwashed masses have a clue as to how to process Clinton getting a series of blow jobs from a chubby dude instead of a chubette? or, Letterman having liaisons with male underlings instead of the very dyke-ey Stephanie Burkette.

And, because a man (meaning me) decides on his own to come absolutely clean, why is he (me once again) more likely to lose it all? Political expediency aside, to say, "I love you. I thought I was straight when we got married. I'm sorry I haven't been able to stay true, nor can I promise that I will be able to be faithful in the future," seems to have a whole lot more integrity than, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

"I don't want to be 60 and find out that you've fallen in love with a man," my wife says. Here's the deal: In spite of my vows, I could have found myself falling in love with another person, male or female, during any of the last 26 yrs. There is no higher risk now than there was before I came out to her. There is always risk in a committed relationship. Humans are not hard-wired for monogamy, regardless of the vows we take and the feelings we have when we take them.




You turned it about you. And naturally as forums go, once it goes a off track the train likes to take its own course.

And you never answered my last question. To me, its a valuable question. Because either you told her and that can hinder her acceptance and forgiveness because that truth can honestly make her feel there is no hope.

Or....

You didn't tell her and You haven't been completely honest with her.


I'm sorry if you take my opinions and questions as an attack. I'm nobody to you. But neither is Monica Lowenski or Stephanie Burkette, but yet you speak harshly about them, judge their weight and looks (Very telling btw). So are only you allowed to judge harshly? and then pretend you are attacked by judgment when something you don't agree with is written? I was seeking clarification and understanding between conflicting statements. Guess I won't get it.. That's okay. I mean, it seems to be the running theme.

[Canticle]

From what I have been observing.....reading.....it would seem to me that Dan is getting some really good input, for this book he is writing. No need for any research, when the replies to his posts, come thick and fast. I think LROS has noticed this and did make a comment upon another thread, about Dan having enough input for the next chapter. If LROS can't think that and I have certainly had that feeling, then I am sure others must have thought the same.

However, the points raised by Dan and discussed, most intelligently, by others, have led to many different views being put forward. The end result, is quite a good one, but in a general manner.....not about one individual, in particular.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Wow! So, now even though I've offered a proposition that has nothing to do with me - i.e. an observation I made, a question that occurred to me while I was watching TV one night, I get more lectures on monogamy and how I'm playing the victim? Bi-Bill and Little Ray, is this necessary?

This discussion is not about me or my philandering, my three marriages, my sexuality, or anything I've ever posted before on this site. It's about whether society at large is more accepting of hetero cheating.


Sorry, Dan, but it is utterly naive of you to imagine that at this point you can start a discussion here about philandering and not expect people to read it in the light of your own infidelity. Nor should you be surprised if people read your question as an plea for more forgiveness for yourself. I in turn am not surprised to find you here, already by your second post in the topic, complaining about how judgmental a reception you are getting.

Yes, the torrent of condemnation stirred by your posts here has been disturbing. It says more about your attackers than you, and they have been roundly criticized for their lack of compassion or positive contributions. I myself have felt a chill about posting highly personal things here because of it. But you could bear these attacks with a lot more grace. You don't look good defending yourself. Let others do it for you.


Now, about me...

Little Ray, if I'm coming off as "fictional," and less than genuine, I'm sorry. But, every word I've written here has been straight from my shattered heart.


I think I know what Little Ray is talking about. It's something that has been disturbing me about your posts from the start, even apart from this back-and-forth with the condemnatory crowd.

While I don't doubt that you really are experiencing all the emotions you describe, at times you give the distinct impression that you observe your life like a man watching a movie. There is a strange disconnect going on, even as you go through your remorse and depression. There was something in particular you said a while back -- guess I'll have to go and dig it up now -- about how you had no choice about what to do because you had to finish your book. It was clear that in your mind the story you're writing in some strange way is on an equal par with the real story of your life. I've had to regard this as some kind of coping mechanism, and have tried not to see where I do similar things, rather than be condemnatory of it, so I've said nothing of it til now. But since Little Ray has brought it out and I see you fail to understand, I thought I'd just speak up and say she's not the only one observing this.



I was living a lie, a double life.

Perhaps you should consider to what extent you are still living a lie.

It is something I am meditating on myself.



Now, I'm learning day by day. A lot of what I'm learning is from interactions with other people here on this site. This community has been, in fact, a life saver, regardless of the pedantic, redundant, sometimes cruel, and certainly unempathetic words that have been hurled so carelessly and thoughtlessly in my direction. I don't care about that stuff.

For someone who doesn't care, you do go off on it a lot. I think you find a bit of relief in being able to be self-righteous about something yourself.



If that sounds fictional and uninteresting, fine.

"Uninteresting"? No one accused you of being uninteresting. You came up with
that one yourself. Interesting indeed.

Is it important to be interesting?

[tenni]

"Yes, the torrent of condemnation stirred by your posts here has been disturbing. It says more about your attackers than you, and they have been roundly criticized for their lack of compassion or positive contributions. I myself have felt a chill about posting highly personal things here because of it."

NotLost
When I first started posting which was a few years after joining this site, I became aware that posters frequently wrote about how "welcoming and accepting" the site (we) was. Yet, I found some very judgmental and condemning if another bisexual didn't live up to their values and expectations. I even read at least one poster stating that bisexuals who were not just like them were giving bisexuals a bad name...lol It seems to me that some posters are far too quick to condemn other bisexuals. How can we expect the hetero and gay communities not to condemn us if we are so busy condemning our own kind that are not identical twins to us?

The posters on this site can and do give support. If you present yourself in a humble, modest and frightened person manner, some are more inclined to "mother" and advise. I recall that one poster used information that was posted by a different poster to attack the second poster. This is not the main approach though. I'm not sure but the attacking poster may have been one of these so called "trolls". The word troll is also thrown out too quickly by some against anyone who has a differing view. Fortunately, this seems to be subsiding. Sadly, I have to think that this "troll" thing has made some posting bisexuals tense as they have been a victim of name calling.

Understandably though, it is difficult to accept those who are not "just" like me. Understandably, some posters speak from personal experience. Those who speak from experience as a philanderer (love that word :) and have regrets are the ones who probably have the most value to listen to. But then again, that is only for those who wish to be monogamous...;)

[Canticle]

''If LROS can't think that and I have certainly had that feeling, then I am sure others must have thought the same.''

As I hate making typographical errors and usually notice them, far too late, just want to point out that ''can't,'' should have read as ''can''

[danreidbarmi]

Sorry, Dan, but it is utterly naive of you to imagine that at this point you can start a discussion here about philandering and not expect people to read it in the light of your own infidelity. Nor should you be surprised if people read your question as an plea for more forgiveness for yourself. You don't look good defending yourself. Let others do it for you.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm defending myself or looking for forgiveness. What I've done is not defensible, and why would I look here for forgiveness? For empathy and understanding, yes, support, maybe. Forgiveness is meaningless unless it's me forgiving myself. And that will be a long-time-comin'.


While I don't doubt that you really are experiencing all the emotions you describe, at times you give the distinct impression that you observe your life like a man watching a movie. There is a strange disconnect going on, even as you go through your remorse and depression. I've had to regard this as some kind of coping mechanism...

I'm a writer. Writing is always a coping mechanism, sometimes my only coping mechanism. It's how I find out how I really feel, what I really think, and what I know.


Perhaps you should consider to what extent you are still living a lie.

Amen. Hopefully my awareness grows every day.


For someone who doesn't care, you do go off on it a lot. I think you find a bit of relief in being able to be self-righteous about something yourself.

I really don't care. It doesn't hurt my feelings. I'm only trying to point out how short-sided some people are. I tend to be self-righteous yes. Not my most endearing quality.

Thanks, all, for your feedback. I do not come here, Btw, with any designs of harvesting material for my book. Believe me, my real life experience has more than enough to write about. This is a huge learning experience. Tenni, you are brilliant, and thanks for staying objective. LROS, yes I did turn the discussion on myself to compare my and my wife's experience with another's. Then I apologized - tiresomely egocentric on my part, I'm sure. As far as making remarks about Monica and Stephanie, those weren't judgmental. Monica is chubby, and Stephanie walks like a lumberjack. Them's the facts. I'm only describing them as I see them. What's "telling" about that? (It's exactly like saying someone is tall, or skinny, or has crooked teeth.)

[Realist]

Actually, I thought Monica was pretty hot...I just didn't like the company she was keeping!

[mikey3000]

Wow! So, now even though I've offered a proposition that has nothing to do with me - i.e. an observation I made, a question that occurred to me while I was watching TV one night, I get more lectures on monogamy and how I'm playing the victim? Bi-Bill and Little Ray, is this necessary?



I tried to warn you Dan. Some people on here are relentless.

[littlerayofsunshine]

LROS, yes I did turn the discussion on myself to compare my and my wife's experience with another's. Then I apologized - tiresomely egocentric on my part, I'm sure. As far as making remarks about Monica and Stephanie, those weren't judgmental. Monica is chubby, and Stephanie walks like a lumberjack. Them's the facts. I'm only describing them as I see them. What's "telling" about that? (It's exactly like saying someone is tall, or skinny, or has crooked teeth.)

Apples and Oranges my dear Chap.. Apples and Oranges.
Outside vs. Inside. What you see vs. what you show us...
And..... You never responded to my question/s.

Now. I'm not at all against books and writes. There are many wise words to be read along the lines of time.

Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Albert Einstein

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
William Shakespeare

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms;
Then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lin'd,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well sav'd, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion;
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
William Shakespeare

[Long Duck Dong]

dan, I have often wondered if people cheat, cos they know that most of the time they can get away with it.......

when you have a partner that will not jump up and fuck off the moment they find out you have cheated... then you are doing well...... people like bill clinton and david letterman are those kind of people

personally, we can empower people to cheat, as they know we are in it for the long haul, not the short term and we do not want marriages like britney spears...lol... we want marriages that are for better or worse..... and again that plays into open marriages, I kinda think that there are times that partners allow extramartial activities rather than lose a marriage......

it has a lot to do with starting over again and the emotional / mental issues caused by divorce and seperation...... and the idea of going at it alone, for a lot of people......

but in a sense, straight philandering is something that has been around for centuries and while it hurts, society has kinda gotta used to it being a part of straight marriage...... but the openness of bi / gay philandering is * new * to society.... tho its been around for centuries too......

no longer is it just confined to the * other woman *... now it can be the other woman / man / trans / bi / gay / les and most people in realtionships and marriages are not really ready to deal with those aspects of philandering...

[danreidbarmi]

Thank you, LDD, for your very insightful observation. I think you are absolutely correct. LROS, thanks for the Einstein and Shakespeare quotes - I am quite familiar with Hamlet, having been in a professional production some years back, as well as having studied the text numerous times.

As to the "question" I have yet to respond to, LROS, I'm not sure how you've make the assumption that I "prefer" one gender over the other. I have succumbed to compulsive desires with men and, yes, I do fantasize more about having sex with men, but I still have a strong and native attraction to women - I just haven't put myself in the vulnerable position to act on my hetero attractions, while I have let it happen with men, numerous times.

Regardless, I will now answer your question. Yes. In fact, my wife now often refers to the very moment and how I made it absolutely clear to her that I have not been capable of resisting my homosexual compulsions. And, so far, she refuses to try to understand or show any interest in (a) the obvious fact that she cannot compete sexually with a man, and therefore, that my homosexual activities take nothing away from her being very desirable woman, and (b) my lack of control over my homosexual desires might very well be symptomatic of addictive behavior.

She has a hell of a lot to deal with at this juncture. So, while I still hope that someday she finds it in her heart to make the effort to understand these things, I know what we're going thru is an ongoing process. She, however, has decided, that the marriage she thought was so perfect just a little over three weeks ago, is absolutely and unequivocally over, and that she is ready to move on to seek a new partner who is capable of meeting her standards. While I feel unjustified in begging her to see this from a broader perspective, I'm not so ready to move on.

[void()]

"Originally Posted by NotLostJustWandering View Post
While I don't doubt that you really are experiencing all the emotions you describe, at times you give the distinct impression that you observe your life like a man watching a movie. There is a strange disconnect going on, even as you go through your remorse and depression. I've had to regard this as some kind of coping mechanism...

I'm a writer. Writing is always a coping mechanism, sometimes my only coping mechanism. It's how I find out how I really feel, what I really think, and what I know."

Writing can help in the ways you posit. I know this but yet sense further disconnect. Perhaps, it is just in my own mind. Only posting as I've seen others have noted it as well. So it kind of lent to suggesting I'm not insane for having that feeling.

Who knows though?

I get lost when the wife makes small gestures of being nice to me. Darn emotions and humanity.

[danreidbarmi]

Writing can help in the ways you posit. I know this but yet sense further disconnect. Perhaps, it is just in my own mind. Only posting as I've seen others have noted it as well. So it kind of lent to suggesting I'm not insane for having that feeling.

Maybe you're right. Maybe I've yet to completely accept responsibility, or feel what I should feel, or express what I should express. All I know is the pain is real, and that I am committed to the truth.

[void()]

Or I may be wrong. All of us are human beings with feet of clay after all. I see you trying in your own way. But I see other stuff as well. Lots of it I would prefer not to discuss simply because of an awareness of my own ignorance and mental/emotional issues. I figure if you're genuine it will all pass in time, you will learn and be better for it. Excuse me, need to be clear of this subject matter. It honestly isn't anything personal, I just get flummoxed by complex issues. Besides that I have trouble with interpersonal communication, relations at times. Might even be autistic.

[danreidbarmi]

Humility, Void. A rare and admirable trait.

[tenni]

"We knew about each others bisexuality before we got married."


Ah...then you are not referring to the same conditions that is being discussed here.

Neither of you are straight and disclosed your sexual preferences before the relationship became open. In the incidents that this thread seems to be about(cuz it has wandered) it is about hetero straight philandering between two heteros or a mixed orientation relationship where the one (either bi or hetero) has philandered with an opposite sex person without the partner awareness. The premise presented is that this is more forgiveable than when a bisexual in a mixed orientation relationship philanders with a same sex person...I think that is the option?

If you are both bisexual and informed each other, your behaviour is irrelevant to the thread premise or question...is it not?

[NotLostJustWandering]

If you are both bisexual and informed each other, your behaviour is irrelevant to the thread premise or question...is it not?

Wait, Tenni. The Switch is about to attack Dan on the unsafe sex angle. I'm not going to predict how Dan will react to a fresh attack.

It's past my bedtime. Catch you later.

[tenni]

This topic is about cheating. What we wrote in reply is relevant to the topic.

Or did you conveniently skim over what we wrote about cheating and hetero couples?

I'm not sure what the original poster wants?

Does he want excuses on why it's OK to cheat? Reasons and excuses for why people in mixed orientation marriages should be allowed to cheat? Or does he want to argue that cheating is somehow excused and accepted among heterosexual couples?

First let me write that I was very tired when I wrote that post. I read your statement about hetero couples philandering ending in divorce but you connected it poorly to a point about the OP issue/question from my perspective.

"I'm not sure what the original poster wants?" Why comment with personalized attack statements about the OP ( imo) if you do not know what the real question of the OP is?

This thread is not about excuses for cheating.

From what you posted this is what I got.
a/ You began your post #30 by asking the OP about his personal situation rather than the more abstract question asked in the OP. That is showing me that you are not really on the question but are doing a personal approach as have other posters. Now, the OP did cheat with same sex and not heterosexual persons. From my perspective,the point that you chose to make it personal rather than the more general question is showing me that same sex cheating is considered worse than hetero cheating by several members of this site. That may be because posters only divulge their same sex cheating on this site though. Still, the constant personalization towards the OP rather than the question is telling about the actual question.

b/ You refer to yourself and disclose that you divulged your bisexuality as did your partner before marriage(or whatever). What I was trying to state is that by doing that what was the point? Was it to say that I'm not a cheater (like you Dan)? I have an open relationship. So, what? Is it stated to point out how much of a better person that you are than any bisexual who cheats? Ok. Big whop. Off topic dude. or dudette (since you have not identified whether you are the man or woman of your couple).

c/ You point out that you know hetero cheaters and the marriage ended. Uh,huh. So what? How does that relate to whether straight philandering is more foregivable than same sex philandering? Are you inferring that cheaters regardless of their sexuality end up losing their relationship and not being foregiven? If so, write it down clearer. Your points seem to be condemning the OP much more than making a clear statement about the OP question. I'm not sure if that is evidence to point to same sex cheaters being not forgiven on this site by site members though. I do wonder though about all the attack fish directed towards male cheaters versus much less attack towards female cheaters. Sexists much or many here?

I do not know what the OP purpose in asking the question is but I do recall him stating that he was not trying to justify his cheating. What I do read are comments from people on this site continuing to attack him. Now, that may mean that by merely creating a thread about anything to do with cheating rings a bell in a lot of posters here that he wants to excuse his behaviour. Whether it is because he is asking about same sex cheating versus heterocheating, I do not know. What I do read is that many posters here personalize anything that he creates on this site. That leads me to believe that many bisexuals get really upset and do not forgive other bisexuals who cheat with same sex partners. Again, shot down the oft repeated statements about this site being for supporting other bisexuals. Tolerance and forgiveness doesn't happen on this site at times.

[tenni]

"If you know your partner does not tolerate cheating at all then do not cheat on them unless you want to end a marriage. It's that simple."


I think that this is an interesting point made by Switch. It leaves much unsaid though.

This is not that simple Switch. You are in a bisexual relationship and not a mixed orientation relationship. It was perhaps easier for you to disclose I don't know.

If a hetero person knows that their partner does not tolerate cheating why do they proceed to cheat rather than bring up their issue that causes them to cheat? The same may be asked about same sex cheating. Obviously, the breakdown in communication or inability to disclose what is bothering the partner who may end up cheating. Which is more difficult: a/ to disclose to your hetero partner your sexuality that you may have just discovered b/ to disclose an issue between you (lack of sex? lack of feeling valued by your partner, etc.)

The various reasons why a person cheats with same sex versus opposite sex are not given much discussion on this site and rarely factored in to some people's distaste for cheating. Bisexuals do not seem to allow any tolerance for the difficulty of disclosure even though they themselves probably felt the fear. Or is it like Switch? I could do it and so you should be able to disclose your sexuality.

In many cases that I know about partners who cheat, the issue for both regardless of sexuality seems to be about a failure to have one's needs met by the other partner as well as difficulty in disclosing or a failure of the partner to be open minded enough to explore the issue. Who do I blame? I don't know. If a partner attempts to discuss the issue that is bothering them and the other partner is not open to resolving the issue, then who is to blame. I think both have some responsibility. I am inclined to forgive same sex cheaters more so than hetero cheaters. As a bisexual man I have more compassion for my fellow bisexuals while others here do not. They seem to think that it reflects on them poorly since they are also bisexual. I think that societal distaste for same sex activity and bisexual activity with both genders is not accepted. Society condemns the cheater not just for cheating but being gay or bisexual as well. I'd say straight phlandering is generally more forgivable than same sex. It is the double whamy impact that makes same sex philandering unforgiveable.

[danreidbarmi]

If you know your partner does not tolerate cheating at all then do not cheat on them unless you want to end a marriage. It's that simple.

Is it really "that simple?" Not in my experience. But, for you who are so evolved, I guess it is.


My wife is my best friend and we do not keep secrets from each other. We knew about each others bisexuality before we got married.

Once again, good for you. My wife is not bi, nor is she at all interested in having an open marriage. "Okay then," you're probably saying, looking through the eyes of simplicity, "you shouldn't have married her." Maybe you're right. But, I was quite certain that I had put my gay phase behind me. I had no inclination toward having sex with men when we married and for years after. AND, I had every reason to think that she knew about my past.

I envy you and your wife and how you've handled openly and honestly what looks to me like an absolutely perfect arrangement, friendship, partnership. But, to apply your standards to me is uncalled for. The only thing "simple" about your doing that is how simply disrespectful you're being.

[tenni]

Dan
Why do you bring it back to yourself if someone comments about you?

I can see it as a clarification or defensive action. I realize how fresh and raw this is for you but I'm not sure if it helps you?...maybe it does. As someone said, let it go and if this thread is about philandering and whether heterosexual philandering is forgiven more so that same sex philandering. I know that it is hard but even if you responded to Switch in a more generic term. "Some people" instead of "my wife" it might deflect the overall conversation away from your own situation.

I do agree with your comments but...Just a thought...