Essay - your thoughts?

[coyotedude]

Knowing that we have a highly diverse array of opinions on religion and atheism in our little community :eek:, I'd be interested in serious and thoughtful commentary on the following essay from the New York Times critiquing Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/on-dawkinss-atheism-a-response/

Thoughts about the essay from believers, agnostics, atheists?

I know this is a lot to ask of this crew, but please try to keep it civil!

Peace

[Pasadenacpl2]

I liked it. It put together Dawkin's argument in a way that was simple to understand and cut through all of the prosey BS. The logic used was succinct, and made sense (to me).

I've never been a fan of Dawkins anyway.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

Much tho I'd love to involve mesel in this lil discussion.. rationally.. I don't have the time, Dude hun, cos I'm away all for the rest of this week on a training course and next me personal life gets in the way.. but will just say this.. there can never be a decisive argument for or against theism or athiesm... short of God appearing and having a lil chat with us all and proving that he/she/it is who he/she/it says he/she/it is... and I doubt he/she/it is likely to do that.. but if he/she/it did a lot of people, including me would get the shock of our bloody lives... but more to the point... a lot of believers of many different religions would get an even bigger one...

.. so it all comes down to a matter of faith in the tales of the various religious texts.... and faith in the context which we are told we should read those texts.. and in fairy tales, I never ever did believe anyway... more, I never did believe in propaganda for its own sake.. and most reigious text is just that.. only.. to me.. less believable...

[void()]

This essay sounded like a round about circular argument. I think a simpler razor can be used. Those believing in a god claim it exists, they need to prove that. Those not believing have no burden of proof. Of course, I'm also fond of another argument.

The Epicurean argument:


Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then is he impotent.

Is God able but not willing? Then is He malevolent.

Is God both able and willing? Whence then is evil?


And you can point out God allowing Free Will. But I question that as well. If God is all knowing, then what are we free to choose? Every action is predestined accordingly to an all knowing and all powerful god/goddess/God. So there exists no Free Will in my view. Borrowing from some lyrics, "if the end is so much better then why not live forever?" So, I do not think the 'it's a test' argument holds water either.

These are just my views, not everyone needs to have the same ones. I was asked to express my views regarding the essay and so did. I close now.

[DuckiesDarling]

For a long time I've had issues with organized religion. I've said it before, I'll say it again, Religion is manmade, faith is what you make of it.

There are those that argue that if there were a higher power why do bad things happen. Why? So you appreciate the good things is a logical answer. I pictured Earth as a test planet for God when I was younger. Thinking that there was a reason that certain diseases seemed to spring out of nowhere after we pretty much eradicated another. That somewhere there is another Earth and the people there don't know disease and hardships.

Since then I had things happen to me that made me realize there is something out there but it's not a be all end all worship me kind of thing. It's the hand of an older wiser friend, a teacher to her students. That's where my faith led me and it leads me well. I run into the same hardships as everyone else but I am never without anything I need. Even this situation with my well is more annoyance than hardship. And knowing how things are going for me this week the situation should be resolved tomorrow morning.

So it's for each person to live according to what they believe or don't believe. I don't try to convert, but I do pass on knowledge when asked.

[12voltman59]

Interesting post. So where the responses posted on that site--I especially liked the post by Gemilli on there--I could not say better what he expressed since his views pretty well align with my own.

[Gibberish]

I've noticed that the vast majority of most people on every side basically believe what they perceive as being the most comfortable and convenient for them. One of the main problems with this topic is that all our data is observed and then explained (Instead of making a hypothesis and using it to make predictions and then testing them, we observe the reality and then rationalize it), so of course people just come up with an idea that makes some sense and feels good to them, since with something this abstract you can't prove anything either way

[citystyleguy]

...a good and sound argument, but nothing original; the argument of does a god exist or not, is like any philosophical discussion, a sort of merry-go-round that never ends. at some point, it always reminds me of the irresistable force meeting the immovable object, which came first, the chicken or the egg, etc.

i was raised a good christian, as practiced by the episcopal church; from that i was jerked by the old man, to be raised an atheist. those teachings pretty much remained my mantra, though to fill the void, i was taught the various philosophies, with my preference for the the teachings of the stoics. later, when i was to marry, i returned to the episcopal church, as my sweet and beautiful wife simply believed that her faith said that there was a god; she came to immerse herself in the teachings of the church, though her baptist upbringing was never far away. in the end, it could not protect her.

i attend a local episcopal parish, more for the comforts of the community, the practices of the church, and for the fact that does not try to control me with guilt, but only attempts to answer the eternal questions through its practices.

for myself, though i enjoy the community and the form, my personal beliefs still encompass the stoical teachings, and the fundamental positions of atheism. that said, all i can offer is that given the complexity of what surrounds me would seem to call for some sense of a unifying force, more as the basic tenet of science, but that there is some godhead running about the universe as some omniscent being, mmmh, sorry but you can count me out on that score.

i cannot offer argumentative nor material support for either, nor do i care to; i have chosen my path, and i will take it where it leads. i hold humanity responsible for the choices it makes, not some godhead; evil is in the mind of the beholder, just as beauty. i am not bad nor good for what i do, but in the end when i look back over my life, i will not allow myself remorse, for it will be what i have done and not done that i will be accountable. i will practice that which achieves the best for the most, strive to hold myself responsible for the wrongs that i have done and right them when done.

as this site is focused on the bisexual, i do not nor ever will consider myself having done wrong, or as the godhead-believers say, done evil. those that i was with, or will be with, i have unconditional love for, and will go into hell itself to protect and defend that and those who matter to me.

if the absurdists of the godhead-believers think that a holy war will right the wrongs, i will say be careful of what you ask for, for your beliefs and declarations may be the wrongs that are righted!

so saith :cool: