The Price of Coming Out

[danreidbarmi]

In my struggle over the last six months or so to figure out how to come out to my wife, I had some heart-to-hearts with a few, select, trusted friends. One of those friends was Richard, my life's greatest spiritual mentor, and the minister who performed the ceremony that united my wife and me. Richard lived a double life himself for the years he presided over his small, independent New Thought church. Tall, breathtakingly handsome, and suave, he used his manly charm and intelligence to attract a coterie of single females to his congregation, many of whom hoped to be the one to rescue Richard from his "bachelorhood."

He wasn't, in fact, a bachelor. He would return home every day to comfort his dying lover. In the final years, Richard had to suspend ropes through their house, because AIDS had taken his life partner's eyesight. Still, Richard platonically escorted rich widows and matriarchs, always playing the part of the most eligible and attractive man in town. I saw Richard last fall, after I had attended the memorial service for my dear younger brother, whose heart had suddenly failed him unexpectedly. Even in the midst of such dire grief, I planned to discuss my sexuality quandary with Richard at that time. But a sudden change in flight plans abbreviated our lunch and made that conversation impossible.

So, months later, after I had suffered through a lengthy bout of suicidal depression, I called Richard to confide and get his advice. He gave me some tuff love, grilling me with a list of questions in search of a conclusion as to how I might handle the impossible situation I had created for myself. The final question was the decider: "Are you willing to give up your marriage in order to be honest?"

I surprised myself. I didn't have to ponder that heavy query for more than ten seconds, tops. "Yes, Richard," I said. Then I repeated myself, louder and more emphatic, "Yes, I am willing to sacrifice it all to live openly and honestly."

"Well then, that's your answer, isn't it," Richard concluded.

It is only now, now that I have let this unruly cat out of the bag that I am beginning to realize what my nearly instantaneous response meant. Now, as my wife and I begin to discuss what we are going to do with our beautiful home, talk through all the awesome pragmatics of going our separate ways, our beautiful daughter, the pets, our stuff. The world she and I have shared for so long is crashing down as if we are characters in a disaster flick. And, I am the godzilla who brought about this horrible destruction, the slobbering monster who clumped over the horizon to carelessly crush a happy family to bits. This I have done because I need to be, because I simply have to finally be honest about who I truly am, a bisexual man.

[AhsomeCouple]

I don't understand. You are bisexual. You told your wife this. Now.. your marriage is ending? Why is that? Are there are other issues involved or is your marriage coming to an end solely based on the fact that you are bisexual? Ending a marriage and family, simply because you are bisexual, seems a bit.. drastic IMO.

[Realist]

Well, Ahsome, apparently you haven't known others who cannot, and will not, accept anything other than heterosexuality. Some people cannot, or will not accept it, no matter what.

My 3rd ex was a wonderful lady......smart, compassionate and loving. Before we married, I told her that I was bisexual, but felt that I could be faithful to her... and I was. She could not fathom anyone having a desire to be intimate with someone of the same gender and the idea was never far from her thought process. She loved me, at least in the beginning, so we married. But my past festered and grew to be a problem, in her mind. She had to know where I was and what I was doing at all times. If I had a male friend, she'd wonder if we were being intimate with each other....she became paranoid. Our marriage ended, not because I cheated, or beat her, or lied to her, but because she could not get over my past.

My family are/was the same. If any of them knew about my bisexual past, they would distance themselves from me, I'm positive. Unless you have been subjected to that kind of dogmatic fervor, you can't understand how abhorrent deviant sexuality is to some.

So, I understand what Dans' going through. I understand what his wife is going through, too. I hope they reconcile and go on to live a more informed and productive life, but it's not going to be a cakewalk. If their love is strong enough, maybe they will overcome this and go on....I hope that will be the outcome.

At least, that's my wish for them. But, it's not going to be easy.








and

[BiPhone]

I'm also surprised. If the only reason you are splitting up is becuase you are bisexual then you both need to stop. It doesn't have to be over. Did you cheat with men behind her back? I do not condone that but you need to tell her that in no way was that becuase she didn't have what it took. You need to tell her that it was sadly something you had to do to find out who you are. You need to tell her that you still love her and want to be with her. The fact that you are bisexual doesn't change who you are.

Go to counseling, or talk to some select few who you trust. Talk to other bisexuals. She can talk to me if she wants. I am allowed to have some "man-time" cause my gf knows it isn't a reflection on her as a sex-partner or as a person. She trusts me and she loves me. It took us 2 years just talking about it before i even did anyting. Its not easy but its possible.

[tenni]

Yes Daryl
If you have not read his other threads, Dan cheated on his wife for quite some time. It was all part of his coming to terms with his bisexuality and he went to a counsellor to get to this point. Time will tell the cost of his honesty and coming to terms with himself.

[AhsomeCouple]

Well, Ahsome, apparently you haven't known others who cannot, and will not, accept anything other than heterosexuality. Some people cannot, or will not accept it, no matter what.

My 3rd ex was a wonderful lady......smart, compassionate and loving. Before we married, I told her that I was bisexual, but felt that I could be faithful to her... and I was. She could not fathom anyone having a desire to be intimate with someone of the same gender and the idea was never far from her thought process. She loved me, at least in the beginning, so we married. But my past festered and grew to be a problem, in her mind. She had to know where I was and what I was doing at all times. If I had a male friend, she'd wonder if we were being intimate with each other....she became paranoid. Our marriage ended, not because I cheated, or beat her, or lied to her, but because she could not get over my past.

My family are/was the same. If any of them knew about my bisexual past, they would distance themselves from me, I'm positive. Unless you have been subjected to that kind of dogmatic fervor, you can't understand how abhorrent deviant sexuality is to some.

So, I understand what Dans' going through. I understand what his wife is going through, too. I hope they reconcile and go on to live a more informed and productive life, but it's not going to be a cakewalk. If their love is strong enough, maybe they will overcome this and go on....I hope that will be the outcome.

At least, that's my wish for them. But, it's not going to be easy.








and

With respect... the part that I have bolded sounds like an issue with an emotionally immature individual. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with your being bisexual at all. Based solely on what you've written.. it appears as though it would be the same if you were straight and had female friends. The individual you mentioned simply seems insecure and jealous.

I can't fathom how a relationship (romantic or platonic) with an emotionally immature individual can thrive regardless of the status of sexuality between the two. That's just how I see it.

As for the issue with family.. my family are those who love me, accept me and want to be around me as I am. I've worked hard at becoming MY idea of a good person. And if anyone doesn't like me after all the time and energy i've invested into becoming me.. oh well. I know not everyone shares my view on family but i'll tell you what.. I'm a much happier person this way. I haven't explained who I am to anyone since my early college years and I have no intention of doing so ever again, you get me or you don't.

Just because he is attracted to men as well as women means absolutely nothing. He doesn't have to sleep with every man he sees no more than he would be sleeping with everyone woman he sees. Therefor a marriage having to end because of who he may be attracted to seems absolutely ludicrous. Perhaps both individuals should calm down, take a few weeks a part and then seek an un-biased counselor to speak with after emotions are no longer so high. Just my opinion as an outsider.

That reads a lot more harsh than I intended, lol. Note: Posting is not intended to sound harsh. lol :)

[void()]

danreidbarmi,

I genuinely apologize for this post in advance. Sometimes a person needs a brick upside the head, though. Let me illustrate this by elucidation of personal experience. My wife cornered me about working, family, life.

"You've been in therapy a year, they can't find anything wrong with you. some bunch of educated stupid they are, huh? You know what? I don't want excuses. You claim family is important, then provide for it. Put on those big boy pants and just do it. Otherwise you're a sniveling hypocrite and I loathe hypocrites!"

So, you need a brick as well. I can't have sympathy for you when your intent upon dragging yourself through feces. The oceans are quite large and host all sorts of fish. You might luck out and find another one more accepting. You might not.

"Sorry buddy, Life only guarantees Death. Get over it and live." And no, I'm in no way trying to rub salt in a wound. But self pity doesn't solve a damn thing. You want to keep posting that, go right ahead. Prepare to lose readers. Your story is played out, now handle the effects and affects. The world is slated to end in 2038, still time enough to live.

[Realist]

Ahsome,

My GF agrees with you. So you have an agreement, there. She was raised in a liberal, open-minded home, in a less conservative area, though. I'm happy in my skin, just as I am and never felt the need to be militant with my personal thoughts, deeds, or sexuality. Those who need to know, knows, so I'm at peace with that.

Each person should do what they feel best. I will listen to others' advice, but in the end, I must do what I feel comfortable with.

Dan will have to work his situation out, too.

[danreidbarmi]

Some folks don't make an effort to find empathy. "Get over it and move on," might seem like good advice. "Stop crawlin' around in the feces," is always an excellent philosophy.

No one knows what any particular experience is like until they experience it themselves. I once ignorantly thought that skin cancer sufferers were just a bunch of whiners. Then, I got the diagnosis and had to have a quarter of my nose removed, while I watched. Then I had to have a dozen injections into my cheeks before it could be stitched up. Now, I understand what skin cancer is. Because I cried in the chair, as the doctor stuck needles into my cheeks, does that mean that I was feeling sorry for myself? I don't think so. I was in a great deal of excruciating pain, as I am right now.

To come to the realization that, by finally coming clean about my sexuality, I have destroyed the fantasy of a perfect, happy family is just like having needles jabbed into my heart. Call that wallowing in feces if you want to. Tell me to get up and walk away. From inside my life, at this moment, I see a great deal of destruction, and more to come. It hurts like hell.

Unfortunately, for my wife, there is only one unforgivable sin: philandering. That I have committed that heinous error, lived a lie, and even risked my life and hers ends our marriage for her. I only hope that she will reconsider and find a way to forgive and stay with me. She can't eat, doesn't even know how to take her next breath. To see her in such pain is devastating to me. I have always considered myself a man of compassion, of generosity, a loving father, husband, and provider. Right now, the face in the mirror doesn't look so great. That's all I'm saying. Sorry if that sounds like self-pity. It's not. It's about taking responsibility and feeling genuine remorse for the destruction I've caused.

[Wrenn]

I was the straight wife in your very situation 16 years ago. The only real difference is that my children were all young and still living at home. The marriage ended because he didn't want to live without having sex with other men. I don't have any advice but will say that it took me years to just get to a place where I could breath again. I don't think I came out of it stronger or better, but I was different. Please understand that I am not making any judgements in Dan's situation because I am not living his life. My deepest sympathy is for his wife. I hope she weathers this devastation much better than I did.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I am so sorry Dan that all of this happened, but my condolences are with your wife as well as you. I'm not taking sides here, please understand that part. You had to do whet you did to be you, and she's having to do the same.
Spirits bless to you both, hon and good luck. :}
Cat

[Pasadenacpl2]

I don't think the problem with his wife is that he is bisexual. I think it's that he is bisexual and has already been with men. Two different conversations:

Man: Honey, I have been bisexual for a very long time and have been sleeping with men for years.
Wife: WTF???


Man: Honey, I'm very confused right now, I think I might be bi, I guess bicurious would be the right term.
Wife: Have you done anything about it?
Man: No, not yet.
Wife: Let's talk...

For many women the idea of bisexuality is more approachable if there hasn't been any MM contact and it's just an abstract. It allows them the ability to put their toe in the water, as it were, and slide into it, rather than being hit full force.

For a great many people (men and women included), the idea of gay sex is disgusting and when a woman pictures her husband with another man, it hits them on that deep, pit of the stomach level. Couple this with a society that sees gays as less 'manly' and you have just changed her entire perception of the 'man' (manly man, at that) that she married. You are, quite literally, not the person she married at that moment. You have to realize that while this may not be rational, it is real, and it is intense.

So, when you seem confused by the wife wanting to end the marriage 'just because he's bi' that is really only because you aren't getting the whole picture. It's not 'just because he's bi.' It's being bi, plus the infidelity, plus the MM contact, and it all hits at once. That's a tough pill to swallow.

As I see it, this will come out one of three ways:

She'll end the marriage (hopefully amicably)
She'll continue the marriage and explore with Dan.
She'll want to continue the marriage, but insist that it return to being and remain monogamous.

I have a feeling that if she chooses option C that Dan will end the marriage. But, I could be wrong.

Pasa

[tenni]

Well explained Pasa

My only additional point that I'd add is this aspect about monogamy for some bisexuals. Some can be monogamous with one opposite sex partner while others it is a stronger denial of self. From what I read, this may be a more difficult concept of acceptance for heterosexual women than heterosexual men to accept about their bisexual partner.

Today, on Dr Phil there was a couple who were dealing with her sexuality. She and Dr. Phil and an expert kept using the term gay. The word bisexual was not used although the expert made a vague reference once that there is more than two sexualities and the word "sexual fluidity" was used once. The woman's greatest fear was rejection from her community. She no longer lived with her husband but they remained married and that had been going on for two years. She was comfortable with her woman lover in private but knew that she could not be seen with her in public community. It was stated that she "acknowledged" her sexuality change in her 40's/50's but had not "accepted" her new sexuality. There was even comments about it being a "phase". She had never seen herself as gay until her 40's or 50's (not sure of her age) when she became aware of being attracted to women. That had not happened for her before. Her husband's greatest fear was that this was his third marriage and that he didn't want it to end. He didn't seem to be upset with her having a woman lover. I kind of found these comments sad as far as bisexuality and the public's chance to be educated. It seems worse that the professionals' didn't include bisexuality in this discussion more. The woman said that she loved her husband still but didn't want to have sex with him anymore. Maybe, the woman was gay. Maybe, she was bisexual. She no longer saw herself as being sexual with her husband but he had accepted this for two years. He seemed ready to resolve it but I sensed a desire for him to stay married.

I don't know if biwomen in this older age area are more comfortable disclosing to their hetero husbands than older bi men are comfortable disclosing to their hetero wives. It does seem that men experience more difficulty disclosing though if their sexuality "changes" later in life? They seem more willing to cheat as a solution but then men generally are more willing to take that route. Some state that there is more public acceptance of women "changing" their sexuality than men. This woman certainly feared that she would lose a lot once it was known in her small community though.

[slipnslide]

Being bisexual here is irrelevant. The issue is infidelity. He wasn't faithful to his wife whether it was with a man or a woman. If you were banging some woman on the side your wife would be cool with that?

I'm also bisexual but I know how to be faithful - as I'm sure the majority of people who post here are also.

Your problem is not your sexuality. Your problem is selfishness. Maybe give a second or two of thought to your partner next time you decide to be a cheater.

This thread should have been titled "The Price of Being a Cheater".

[BiBedBud]

^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
What slipnslide said!

[Pasadenacpl2]

The cheating is only one facet. See my above post.

Pasa

[just4mefc]

I don't think the problem with his wife is that he is bisexual. I think it's that he is bisexual and has already been with men. Two different conversations:

Man: Honey, I have been bisexual for a very long time and have been sleeping with men for years.
Wife: WTF???


Man: Honey, I'm very confused right now, I think I might be bi, I guess bicurious would be the right term.
Wife: Have you done anything about it?
Man: No, not yet.
Wife: Let's talk...

For many women the idea of bisexuality is more approachable if there hasn't been any MM contact and it's just an abstract. It allows them the ability to put their toe in the water, as it were, and slide into it, rather than being hit full force.

For a great many people (men and women included), the idea of gay sex is disgusting and when a woman pictures her husband with another man, it hits them on that deep, pit of the stomach level. Couple this with a society that sees gays as less 'manly' and you have just changed her entire perception of the 'man' (manly man, at that) that she married. You are, quite literally, not the person she married at that moment. You have to realize that while this may not be rational, it is real, and it is intense.

So, when you seem confused by the wife wanting to end the marriage 'just because he's bi' that is really only because you aren't getting the whole picture. It's not 'just because he's bi.' It's being bi, plus the infidelity, plus the MM contact, and it all hits at once. That's a tough pill to swallow.

As I see it, this will come out one of three ways:

She'll end the marriage (hopefully amicably)
She'll continue the marriage and explore with Dan.
She'll want to continue the marriage, but insist that it return to being and remain monogamous.

I have a feeling that if she chooses option C that Dan will end the marriage. But, I could be wrong.

Pasa

Wow Pasa for once we actually totally agree (all these liberals must be getting too you or something :tongue:) Ok all kidding aside. I really think Pasa is spot on. You hit this women with way too many factors at once. It also appears that you intend to continue your extra marital contacts from here on out???? Now we all have huge fights on this site about fidelity and I for one do fall on the side of NOT-Cheating and full disclosure blah blah blah. However, I traveled a long bumpy road to get here. You clearly made many mistakes along the way but anyone who wants to fry you for your manning up and owning your shit is just a self righteous fearful of their own lives and consequences ass. Yeah I said it go ahead and blast me, then grow up people. Each and every human being who has ever walked this earth has at some point been disingenuous at some point so throw your stones at your own glass houses. Now that being said I do agree for the sake of those who would travel your path it is a good lesson in the consequence of such actions. But this is about you so I will try to stay on topic.

One thing your woman actually needs is for you to FIGHT for her. You said in another post something along the lines of "well if she wants to go I understand and won't stand in her way" BULLSHIT man. If you want to save this life you have then fight for it! Every woman wants a man to show her she is worth fighting for. It is your job to win her, to save her, in fact from the results of your actions. I have done this in my life. I have cheated and come clean and fought to show I was contrite. It was not easy but I did win her back. Now this was not with men that I cheated but I don't think it will ultimately matter. I say go to her and say something like this "I see you are hurt, I screwed up and you want to end our lives together, well NO I am not quitting. You are what matters more then anything and I will not end our marriage without a battle. Please go with me to find a marriage counselor there is always time to leave latter but please slow down. Catch your breathe. I came clean to you so we could have an honest life together. I don't know what that means but lets find out"

Now if you really don't want to save it then come to terms with yourself and let it go. Go find a good psychologist for both of you and work on this marriage one way or another. The Psych can help with the breakup as well as the stay together and leave you both healthier.

Much love to you both. This hurt runs deep for all. For you, your child and your wife. Mostly just try to slow all this down. Be well :2cents:

[littlerayofsunshine]

Why did his other marriages fail?

statistics on divorce for 3rd marriages "70% to 73% marriages end in divorce"

I saw this information on http://www.divorcestatistics.org/

Not being "harsh" just curious and realistic.

I wish him and his family the best. As I do to everyone.

But odds exist for a reason. To break them or be one of them and that's without even considering bisexuality as a factor.

And it makes me ponder. Men who cheat with so many other men while in a relationship are considered by some to be "discovering their bisexuality" while men who cheat on women with other women are not considered "discovering their heterosexuality".

Women who cheat on men with other women are considered closeted lesbians by many. And women who cheat on men with other men aren't considered, closeted hetero's. Just whores or whatever label gets spit at them.


Dan, Good luck on your book, by your posts you already have most of your next chapter written.

[tenni]

Ugh here we go again!

Another post by Tenni blaming Hetero women for all of the problems that bisexual men encounter. Even when in the case of Dan it's from the man making a choice to lie and cheat on his wife. :rolleyes:

Tenni, you realize there are straight men who do not want their wife or girlfriend to be bisexual and don't want a relationship with a bisexual woman.

There are bisexual and lesbian women who do have affairs on their straight husbands.

Someone's sexuality is not to blame for the problems in a marriage between a straight person and a bisexual when someone like Dan is deciding to lie and cheat.

I think that your choice of wording is interesting. "someone like Dan". There are hundreds and hundreds of bisexual men who act exactly as Dan has. Several have admitted it on this thread and then they fessed up. This group is not a small number among bisexuals. To merely dismiss them and not discuss what makes them act this way is foolish. Certainly, it is mainly that man's responsibility. However, frequently on this site I have read about how hetero men have been accepting of their wives interest in same sex experience. There are reasons why bimen are less likely to disclose before acting compared to biwomen. This is further supported by mainstream hetero sexual porn designed for men where women are idealized as lesbians. The concept is that it is for the man's pleasure. Now some have reported that their hetero wives do have an interest in two men making out but this is not as publicly out there as same sex action between women. The point is that same sex interaction between men is frowned on much more so by the mainstream than between women. That is not to write that "some" hetero men may frown on their biwomen being involved with women. It just seems to me that is how it is on this website. As far as biwomen having affairs on their husbands are concerned, that question was asked. ONE and only one woman stepped forward. There was a second woman who admitted a variation. Now, that might also be fear on biwomen's part since 40% of women will have an affair on their partner sometime during their life. Certainly, it seems that more than one biwoman had such an affair? Not according to those who stepped forward on this site though.

Some of you write as if men who cheat to satisfy their same sex interest are lowly pond scum. This is disgusting for a bisexual website. You are heavily influenced by the mainstream concept of couple monogamy. I've read a few times how scornful posters are toward men who cheat compared to women who cheat. There is a double standard. That is not to say bemyonly1 write about biwomen is not true. There is just a harsher judgment cast toward bimen and this is by bisexuals on a bisexual site.

[slipnslide]

You said in another post something along the lines of "well if she wants to go I understand and won't stand in her way" BULLSHIT man. If you want to save this life you have then fight for it! Every woman wants a man to show her she is worth fighting for.

You're missing the subtext: He doesn't care about his wife and wants to fuck guys. In many ways, it appears it was simple sabotage of his marriage. I'm starting to think he's accepting he's gay.

[just4mefc]

Why did his other marriages fail?

statistics on divorce for 3rd marriages "70% to 73% marriages end in divorce"

I saw this information on http://www.divorcestatistics.org/

Not being "harsh" just curious and realistic.

I wish him and his family the best. As I do to everyone.

But odds exist for a reason. To break them or be one of them and that's without even considering bisexuality as a factor.

And it makes me ponder. Men who cheat with so many other men while in a relationship are considered by some to be "discovering their bisexuality" while men who cheat on women with other women are not considered "discovering their heterosexuality".

Women who cheat on men with other women are considered closeted lesbians by many. And women who cheat on men with other men aren't considered, closeted hetero's. Just whores or whatever label gets spit at them.


Dan, Good luck on your book, by your posts you already have most of your next chapter written.

LROS,

I think it is because most humans fail to learn from there mistakes. We keep marrying the basically same person or for the same "wrong" reason etc... So I think if Dan does divorce and wants to never have that happen again then finding a good psychologist would help.

"Discovering my heterosexuality" roflmao that is very funny. I am gonna have to steal that one ;)

Of course this all leads back to the never ending argument "should a bi person be entitled to have sex with anyone anytime because it is a denial of self to have only one partner blah blah blah"

[just4mefc]

You're missing the subtext: He doesn't care about his wife and wants to fuck guys. In many ways, it appears it was simple sabotage of his marriage. I'm starting to think he's accepting he's gay.

OR you are reading into the subtext your own values and issues. Maybe he is maybe he ain't but that is for him to say not for you to judge. Gay, str8 and freaky, bi, I can't apply that to another person. Orientation is after all a SELF concept.

[slipnslide]

Some of you write as if men who cheat to satisfy their same sex interest are lowly pond scum. This is disgusting for a bisexual website.

Wait, so because this is a bisexual web site we should lower our standards and accept infidelity?

The main reason I've decided to stop exploring my bisexuality is because I've discovered that to a significant extent the community is below my standards and generally lacks class. If I read Getting Bi, the bisexual world sounds wonderful and positive. On a site like this, the truth comes out.

I don't date girls who fuck and blow every guy they meet. Yet I hit a dating site where I identify myself as bi and suddenly I've got a dozen guys with girlfriends or wives who want to know if I want a blowjob - without having even met me. This is why the community is marginalized. Guys can't be cheating on their girlfriends, cheating on their wives, blowing strangers, fucking strangers and then bitch that bisexual people aren't treated fairly. Oh woe is the bisexual. Meanwhie in my community, Ottawa, the gay and bisexual guys are clogging up our sexual health clinic because of this lack of class.

Maybe if more bi guys started acting like self-respecting human beings, being bisexual would be more respected. How can the world respect them when they don't respect anyone else?

[DuckiesDarling]

Dan, you've said it yourself in several posts, it's not the bisexuality it's the cheating. That is something your wife can't forgive, I think you knew that and that's why it took you so long to admit the truth to her. I'm glad you accept that it's your fault. But it doesn't make it any easier on either of you. I wish you both the best and hope that you advised her on getting tested now as you have posted about your unsafe sex practices in other threads.

[Long Duck Dong]

affair? Not according to those who stepped forward on this site though.

Some of you write as if men who cheat to satisfy their same sex interest are lowly pond scum. This is disgusting for a bisexual website. You are heavily influenced by the mainstream concept of couple monogamy. I've read a few times how scornful posters are toward men who cheat compared to women who cheat. There is a double standard. That is not to say bemyonly1 write about biwomen is not true. There is just a harsher judgment cast toward bimen and this is by bisexuals on a bisexual site.

you are asking us to say its ok to lie and decieve your partner, show a utter lack of respect for the person you claim to love, endorse a image that bisexuals are in fact self centered, ignorant, arrogant dick driven individuals, that can only think in terms of getting laid at any cost

tenni, you are the one that have the wrong site, buddy... this is bisexual.com... not www.lieingbastardsRus.com..... there are many people in this site that have a relationship built of open honesty and trust with their partners and that have working relationships that embrace bisexual sexual relations with others....and that is what many bisexuals want.... a open and working relationship..... thats why we strive for acceptance with partners and being open and honest with them......

you may want to have lieing and deceiving to be seen as a part of the bisexual lifestyle, but there is a large number of the site that have real, qenuine caring partners that accept who and what we are...... in my case its my hetero female partner that you suggested, should be a lil less supportive of me in the site.........

now I would suggest you go back to your mirror, lube and your hands...and leave the relationship issues and understanding to the people that have relationships with their partners ( be they supportive or not )... and stop expecting people with morals and self respect, to support a lifestyle of lies, that you seem so keen to purse

[Pasadenacpl2]

Wait, so because this is a bisexual web site we should lower our standards and accept infidelity?

The main reason I've decided to stop exploring my bisexuality is because I've discovered that to a significant extent the community is below my standards and generally lacks class. If I read Getting Bi, the bisexual world sounds wonderful and positive. On a site like this, the truth comes out.

I don't date girls who fuck and blow every guy they meet. Yet I hit a dating site where I identify myself as bi and suddenly I've got a dozen guys with girlfriends or wives who want to know if I want a blowjob - without having even met me. This is why the community is marginalized. Guys can't be cheating on their girlfriends, cheating on their wives, blowing strangers, fucking strangers and then bitch that bisexual people aren't treated fairly. Oh woe is the bisexual. Meanwhie in my community, Ottawa, the gay and bisexual guys are clogging up our sexual health clinic because of this lack of class.

Maybe if more bi guys started acting like self-respecting human beings, being bisexual would be more respected. How can the world respect them when they don't respect anyone else?

I actually do agree with you here.

Now, I'm all for a couple being swingers. But that's a mutually decided arrangement. But, many in the gay "community" seem to operate on the swinger idea of sex anywhere anytime with anybody. It's all one big hookup.

Note that I said 'many' and not all or most.

Pasa

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Oh here we go. BMO1 is back with his/her normal sensitivity and tact and putting people in catagories. "People like Dan" He made a major mistake, he awknowledged it, he is paying for it. He knows what he did and has to deal with his own conseqences. Its his mess, and he alone is going to hafta clean it up. Not All bi people are going to cheat, not all hetro people are going to cheat, but Humans will. Its the way of the world, why label someone for it?
And theres the C word. I Wondered when that was going to come into play....:rolleyes:
Cat

[danreidbarmi]

The price of cheating? I didn't get caught. I decided to finally come clean, because I couldn't live with my lying self anymore, and I needed to live openly and honestly, regardless of the cost. And, it's not the sexuality that is the back-breaker here, it's the infidelity. My wife said that, if we weren't married, and she knew that I was bi, that we would probably be best friends -- she likes me that much. I was untrue. That is why she wants to end our marriage, pure and simple. That would probably be the case even if I were able to promise her that it would never happen again (which I simply can't -- if I'm going to be honest enough to confess my sexuality and my infidelity, why would I make a promise that I'm not absolutely sure I can keep?)

For anyone to assume that I don't care for my wife is making a completely uninformed presumption. You don't have enough information to make that assessment, nor do you have the right. I honestly didn't realize what I was doing. I wasn't "exploring my bisexuality" out of curiosity anymore, and I didn't "decide" to cheat on her. I did decide to put myself in tempting and compromising situations. That was my bad. But, I got caught up in a cycle of thrilling and risky behavior that I rationalized and compartmentalized. I'm still arriving at the painful realization of how reprehensible my actions were, and I absolutely hate myself for doing such selfish and foolish things and ultimately causing her such unbearable pain.

As far as my first two marriages were concerned: the first (of 11 years) was not a real marriage; it was on and off; we both had numerous affairs, and I was openly bi (it was a real rock 'n' roll marriage that was probably doomed from the start); the 2nd was a hasty one, persipitated by an unplanned pregnancy; we had great sex and she was the first woman to make me feel like a "real man;" but, she was also an egocentric, infantile, drama diva, and, as it turned out a drug addict, who stole money from me and my parents to feed her habit; although I was faithful to her, she dragged me to my lowest point, and I decided I needed to find a whole person, a peer, an equal, a life partner.

Enter wife #3, my only "real" wife... (or, as it stands, future ex-wife #3); nothing like the first two (who were fascinating, unpredictable, mysterious, and sexy), she is witty, smart, mature, grounded, ebullient, fun, charming, generous, talented, and amazing. In a lot of ways, she is, in fact, my idol. Many times, I've made the statement that she taught me everything I know about being a human being. But, I fucked it up, and now I'm paying the price. Regretfully, so is she. She used to joke that, without her, I'd be "a bag of shit-dust." Right now, that's exactly what I feel like, a bag of shit-dust.

But, I won't go down without a fight. Now that the reality of what I'm about to lose is dawning on me, I'm gonna give it my best shot. I'm seeing my shrink again this coming Tues -- for the first time since I spilled the bi-beans. We'll have plenty to discuss.

[just4mefc]

I'm a woman and this is not true.

I don't "need" a marriage or a relationship with a man.

I don't need a man to fight for me. I can fight on my own.

If I were married cheater I would not want him to pull any of the BS that you are describing to try to win me back by promising never to cheat again or save our marriage when he was the one that lied and cheated.

Someone clearly does not like women doing things on their own or thinking for themselves. I'm sure you don't like feminism either. ;)

LOL you are a twit. I doubt you are even a woman. I didn't say all women need a man. I said a woman needs HER man to fight for their relationship. I did not say promise anything I said be contrite and come to terms with your mistakes. Now I say go think for yourself for once because everything I read that you write shows clearly you have never thought about anything ever. But your silly attempts to read into peoples words do make me wonder if you are even old enough to be on this site? Now if an actual grown up would care to take me to task for what I wrote, I welcome them to do so.

[just4mefc]

dan wrote
But, I won't go down without a fight. Now that the reality of what I'm about to lose is dawning on me, I'm gonna give it my best shot. I'm seeing my shrink again this coming Tues -- for the first time since I spilled the bi-beans. We'll have plenty to discuss.

Good for you Dan. Give it all you have if you truly want it.

[danreidbarmi]

Here's what hurts this morning. My wife has been making herself feel even worse by worrying about our daughter (the one we just took to college). The kid has been through the ringer with self-esteem issues and self-destructive behavior (not drugs, alcohol, or sex - cutting, an eating disorder, now a weight problem). She has been challenged with ADD, bad grades, etc. Now, she is ready to launch a whole new life in a whole new world, and we are about to inform her that her home foundation is no longer there.

Her post on FB this morning:
"I miss you and mom so much. I seriously can not wait til parents weekend! I`m counting down the days. Hope everything is okay at home. I love you"

Ouch!

[tenni]

[QUOTE=slipnslide;181372]Wait, so because this is a bisexual web site we should lower our standards and accept infidelity?

No, you should not lower your standards ..FOR YOURSELF. You should realize that bisexuality is a broad position to be in. You should realize that the mainstream values reject bisexuality and therefore reject you. You should bring yourself to a position of acceptance and by doing that broaden your understanding of other bisexuals. It is not "right" to cheat. It is not "right" to put down other bisexuals as they live their life the best that they can. There has been a lot of transference towards bisexuals who find themselves cheating for a variety of reasons. These bisexuals are making decisions that you and others do not agree with as they come out first to themselves. To be in a mixed orientation relationship before you have come to terms with your own bisexuality is difficult. The person doesn't need other bisexuals condemning them because they are not living up to "your" values. You are assuming that all bisexuals are just like you and should live their life just like you by your standards.

It seems to me that you are too worried about what the mainstream neighbours think than you are about the struggles that other bisexuals are going through. As we see Dan and others go through this process of disclosure to their hetero partners the price of coming out after marriage can be rather large. Some posters here have been through what Dan is presently experiencing and have had their marriage remain in tact. They have found a form of compromise. We, are not all fits one size solution. It would have been best if they told their partner before but they were not there yet about themselves. Looking at how some other bisexuals treat you here on this site and the huge consequences for some who do disclose, is the price of coming out too great? Many here say no it isn't but the other bisexuals can be supportive and guiding rather than condemning. Doncha think? Bimen cheat with other men for a reason that is more complex than cheating with a woman. Right or wrong that happens. Some think like Dan did that it is not the same cheating.

[danreidbarmi]

Few can understand the abject loneliness of being vilified, of being a pariah, condemned by gays and straights alike for not being able to be one or the other, then to have fellow bisexuals join the condemnation. As Tenni points out, everyone's story is different, every path takes its own twists and turns. Every relationship has its nuances and quirks. For anyone to judge another person, especially someone they don't even know is simply wrong. It's as wrong as cheating and just as cruel. I'm not saying this to get you or anyone else to feel sorry for me. I've unmade my bed. Now, I'm gonna have to find a new one to sleep in. But, at least the next place I lay my head will be an honest place.

In the meantime, I know, from my life's experience, which has been reinforced in these discussions, that there will always be somebody whose standards are too lofty and who cannot seem to find empathy. Some of those people will have been my friends. Some might even be members of my own family. Time will tell.

No one can argue against the fact that being faithful is a virtue. I have the ultimate admiration for those who have made a commitment and stuck to it. Being monogamous is not the natural state of human beings. We are, by nature, always looking for something new, something exciting, something "more interesting." In my case, I got caught up in a search for something more dangerous, more risky, therefore more thrilling. Then, I was shocked to discover that I could actually feel something with and for another man. That's when my compartmentalization began to unravel. That's when I knew I had to make a change. I'm not using any of this as an excuse for my dishonesty, only as a matter of fact.

[void()]

danreidbarmi,

I can have empathy. I said there was no sympathy. you are in pain over hurting your wife. Been there myself. I think it is a universal husband requirement that we hurt knowing of anything that could hurt our partner, or doing anything that might. It is though a 'cross' we bear out of love, we choose it.

You chose to be unfaithful as well. I'm only hearing your side. Sure, great you finally came out in the wash. But what you did was your choice. I've had plenty of opportunities myself, even some I'm sure my wife would never find out about. But I don't stray. She and I remain honest. "Honey, I'm going to fuck Joe."

This way we don't cheat. How can we if we're both consenting adults and aware? There isn't infidelity. We have love. We choose to come home to one another, remain together. But then, I also chose telling her before we married. At first she was insecure but gradually realized I'm not leaving her, and it's not really about anything more than sometimes I need to be with a man, she's not a man and I don't want her to be.

She is my perfect woman and satisfies me completely as a woman. Don't want another woman. Hell, I have wet dreams about her even after ten years of marriage. Um, no don't think any other woman could compare.

And yes, it bothered me seeing her insecure at first. It hurt, real bad. Again though, it comes back to choices. She doesn't have to love me. I'm glad she does.

In summary, I can empathize but not sympathize. This is something you had control over, made a choice. I'm sorry it hurts but you sort of hung yourself. I'm not saying you need to live this way or that, but you really ought to talk talk before you think and act act before you think. In the long run it's not worth it to hurt those you love.

[slipnslide]

...the mainstream values...too worried about what the mainstream neighbours think

If your wife is cool with you blowing strangers in a bar washroom on weekends, wonderful.

If you've made a vow to be faithful to her, do it.

All people having to do is be honest and faithful and not blame their actions on a nebulous concept like sexuality.

[littlerayofsunshine]

As far as my first two marriages were concerned: the first (of 11 years) was not a real marriage; it was on and off; we both had numerous affairs, and I was openly bi (it was a real rock 'n' roll marriage that was probably doomed from the start); the 2nd was a hasty one, persipitated by an unplanned pregnancy; we had great sex and she was the first woman to make me feel like a "real man;" but, she was also an egocentric, infantile, drama diva, and, as it turned out a drug addict, who stole money from me and my parents to feed her habit; although I was faithful to her, she dragged me to my lowest point, and I decided I needed to find a whole person, a peer, an equal, a life partner.

Enter wife #3, my only "real" wife... (or, as it stands, future ex-wife #3); nothing like the first two (who were fascinating, unpredictable, mysterious, and sexy), she is witty, smart, mature, grounded, ebullient, fun, charming, generous, talented, and amazing. In a lot of ways, she is, in fact, my idol. Many times, I've made the statement that she taught me everything I know about being a human being. But, I fucked it up, and now I'm paying the price. Regretfully, so is she. She used to joke that, without her, I'd be "a bag of shit-dust." Right now, that's exactly what I feel like, a bag of shit-dust.



Wow it makes me even more curious. So the first marriage. What made it on again off again? The affairs? What made it not 'legitimate'? Would it had been legitimate if only one of you had affairs?

In regards to the second. She sounds awful familiar. Drug addiction as been akin to sex addiction in many ways.

As to the third, your current. She sounds quite lovely and very undeserving of what she has been given. I suspect she feels this way about her own situation.

One thing though. It is a great thing, that you both are doing what is best for yourself in this time of need. So congrats to you for living the true you this time. And to her for willingness to process all that it is. So many people live in delusions and denial and throw away what made them human to do 'what is best' in the eyes of others. It's hard. But everyone must find their authentic self.

[tenni]

Void
You can feel empathy but not sympathy for a bisexual in Dan's position?
I was a bit unclear so I googled.

"Sympathy is a social affinity in which one person stands with another person, closely understanding his or her feelings. Also known as empathic concern, it is the feeling of compassion or concern for another, the wish to see them better off or happier. Although empathy and sympathy are often used interchangeably, a subtle variation in ordinary usage can be detected. To empathize is to respond to another's perceived emotional state by experiencing feelings of a similar sort.[1] Sympathy not only includes empathizing, but also entails having a positive regard or a non-fleeting concern for the other person."

Void
Are you stating that you have no positive regard or concern for a bisexual who has gone down the road that Dan has even if they change? You do not really care or are concerned about their well being? You don't give a shit about bisexuals who do this? In my opinion, that is rather sad if that is what you mean. Gee, maybe the cost of coming out is too great with other bisexuals around like you to have to deal with on top of the condemnation of heteros and the mainsteam?

I would write that LROS has shown both empathy and sympathy in her above post.

[slipnslide]

What exactly should elicit sympathy for this guy? The cheating? The breaking up of his marriage as a result? The hurt he's going on impose on his daughter? The only people deserving of sympathy are his wife and daughter. They didn't choose this - he chose it for them through his own selfishness.

Personally no, I don't give a shit about cheaters who come begging for people to validate their actions. They know what they were doing - they are adults after all.

[littlerayofsunshine]

Void


I would write that LROS has shown both empathy and sympathy in her above post.

Tenni, this statement right here is a true showing that you should stick with your own opinions regarding an OP and not dissect other's posts and opinions along the way.

In the other thread, my post was indeed from a place of concern and caring. and it got condemned as "harsh" and i was told to shut up and other things..

In the one you are giving an opinion about just above reeks of facetiousness and was intent to be quite condescending.

You can be no judge on anyone's intent. And that goes for others who judge a usage of words and wants them to be written eloquently and never caring about the true intentions of the words. Words are meaningless without knowing the true intent of them and in living.. The actions to back them up.


BTW. Sarah Palin called. and she wants her word Mainstream back.

[danreidbarmi]

Void: How is it fidelity, when you announce, "I'm going to fuck Joe?" Honesty, maybe, but fidelity? Maybe it conforms with the ground rules of your marriage, but not mine. My wife has always made it clear that it's monogamy (synonymous with fidelity) or nothing. I was unable to stay monogamous, so that's what I'm left with -- nothing. Unlike your marriage, there is no room for compromise in mine.

When I had a hot one-night affair in a hotel room a few months back, I asked the guy if his wife knew. "That I'm bi?" he retorted. "Yeah, she's bi, too." He is a very lucky man. They have a lovely home, kids, and a marriage that works. But, I don't think anybody would say that there is "fidelity" in that arrangement. There is an understanding of what the rules are, and the two partners adhere to the rules -- as you and your wife adhere to your own agreement.

I knew what my wife's rules were, and I broke them. Because I had never had an affair with a woman, I rationalized that I was actually being true to my wife. The men with whom I had encounters offered me something my wife couldn't give me. They didn't compete directly with her, so I justified my straying by explaining to myself that I wasn't really cheating. As I've shared before, my therapist set me straight on that account. It was tuff to hear, but I got it, and, believe me, I get it now.

Once again, I chose to put myself in the position to be tempted to cheat. Of that I admit totally. But, I couldn't choose to cheat, because I really didn't think I was cheating. Lecturing me after the fact about my poor "choices" is like telling a od'ed heroin addict, "You knew you were killing yourself when you stuck that needle into your veins." No, he knew he had to have the drug, and he was gonna do whatever it took, lie, cheat, and steal, to supply himself with it. He knew there was a chance that the drug would kill him, but that didn't matter in that moment. I knew that I was running the risk of destroying my marriage, too, and that I was playing Russian roulette with my life -- but that doesn't mean that I was choosing to destroy my marriage or trying to kill myself.

Now, I know I was totally unfaithful. I understand that, and I take complete responsibility for my actions. I was compulsive, stupid, foolish. To continually harp on this "you chose to be unfaithful, so you got what you deserve" theme is not helpful or constructive. And, playing semantic games with "empathy" and "sympathy" doesn't cut it either. You can have your own rules in your relationship, but you can't make up your own meanings for the mother tongue.

(Just some thoughts for the day from ol' Dan.)

[tenni]

"The issues surrounding Dan have nothing to do with being bisexual or male and are only about a person who is a coward and lied and cheated on his wife."

Sorry, but you do not understand all aspects about bisexuality ( I don't either but I do understand some of the things that Dan has said). Right or wrong, some of us have compartmentized our sexuality at certain points. For me, it was men in one box and women in the other. Never mix them up and it worked for me. This was not a wholistic way but then I had no idea about the word "bisexual". Need versus desire is another unclear aspect that some of you have not had as part of your being (it seems?). Those who have not have no understanding of what Dan is referring to.
.
"Tenni, someone getting angry at their spouse lying and cheating on them is not a reflection of what you call mainstream heterosexual values."

No, but "only monogamy with one man and one woman" and "heterosexuality is right and all other sexualities are wrong" are mainstream heterosexual values. Mainstream sexual values are based upon heterosexuality. From that conflict between bisexuality and these mainstream heterosexual values comes some of the problems with mixed orientation relationships. Not all but some.

[void()]

danreidbarmi,

"To continually harp on this "you chose to be unfaithful, so you got what you deserve" theme is not helpful or constructive."

I concur and apologize for not being able to find myself being constructive to one in your situation. Just not in my nature.

"Void: How is it fidelity, when you announce, "I'm going to fuck Joe?" Honesty, maybe, but fidelity? Maybe it conforms with the ground rules of your marriage, but not mine."

Exactly, and point taken.

"You can have your own rules in your relationship, but you can't make up your own meanings for the mother tongue. "

Ezra Pound, enough said. You could look at lots of other writers that create their own meanings. Something I learned in high school from a history instructor, if you are raised to think a radiator is a chair, so it is for you. But again your point is taken. It was a bit of an unfair ploy on my end to not articulate. Possibly, due to something known as compassion. Otherwise I'd not even bother conversing about this with you and others. Shame I'm not a complete sociopath any more. It could help avoid the difficulties of human communication altogether. *grin*

tenni,

I really ought not even address this with you but you seem to be asking nicely enough. :)

"Are you stating that you have no positive regard or concern for a bisexual who has gone down the road that Dan has even if they change?


I have a mixed view on this. On one hand there's an adage regarding leopards and spots. On the other human intellect and nature by extension are quite surprising. In either case though, I have difficulty feeling sorry for someone in such a case as presented. I understand not everyone needs to live by higher standards, or lower ones. But it still seems like someone in this case is belaboring self pity and asking others along. Sorry, I just can't take a journey like that. It wasn't my choice that wound them in this situation.

Let me give you another for instance to help expound the context I perceive.

There was a mother in Texas that bashed in the brains of her three children. When she was tried her defense was that God had told her to do it in order to spare her boys from the impending Armageddon. She was sentenced to life in a mental health facility.

Apologies but according to 'common' interpretation of the law, she committed murder. I have difficulty buying her defense, even if I did, still think she deserved capital punishment. A mother killing her own children? How much more of a monster need she be?

But then too, consider the POTUS at the time announced to an African ambassador, in public "God told me to go to war with Iraq, so I did." Yet he still continued being POTUS, did not get any trail or so much as a hoot.

I dislike and really disdain people who do not accept personal responsibility. It does not matter what the excuse is. Even I had to admit lack of accepting responsibility, and yes I held myself in contempt. Now, I'm making diligent efforts to do better. So, yes I do think change is a possibility in this case as well. But ... time will tell.


You do not really care or are concerned about their well being?

That is not what I said. See above though for more articulation.

You don't give a shit about bisexuals who do this?

Again, not what I said at all. I've been rather transparently clear here and now, for you. And I think it is all I have to say on it.

In my opinion, that is rather sad if that is what you mean. Gee, maybe the cost of coming out is too great with other bisexuals around like you to have to deal with on top of the condemnation of heteros and the mainsteam?

I did not condemn him for a) being bisexual, b) coming out. I disapprove of his infidelity and manner in which he seems to have destroyed his ideal life, and his wife's. I have expressed that disapproval emphatically and articulately, now. So, thanks for reading. Hope you can comprehend it better. If not, it's not my problem.

"

[tenni]

Void
"I did not condemn him for a) being bisexual, b) coming out. I disapprove of his infidelity and manner in which he seems to have destroyed his ideal life, and his wife's."

I may be wrong but you wrote that you had no sympathy for him. I gave you the meaning and difference between empathy and sympathy. As he is coming out, you state that you will not give him sympathy in other words you will not stand by him because he cheated as he was coming to term with his bisexuality over many years. For me, that seems like a condemnation of him for being bisexual and having done things differently than you. I doubt that Dan would have seen his life as "ideal" during this marriage when he went outside of his marriage to meet his needs. From other things that he has posted, the marriage was not ideal on several levels including that his wife will not accept his bisexuality and continuing to fulfill his need. Whether one day he is able to find that being with men is not a need but rather a desire as it seems for you and some others, time will tell.

[void()]

"To empathize is to respond to another's perceived emotional state by experiencing feelings of a similar sort.[1]"

I have no intent upon being in his shoes and have not his experience, so can not empathize and figure can not sympathize either. What I do know is being deceived hurts in both directions, the deceived and deceiver. So, please excuse me from this thread. I don't feel it appropriate to put on a facade and be one of 'the happy people'.

Dan,

It isn't you personally but your actions. Apologies if any of my diatribe appeared personal, it was not intended as such. Who knows we may even buy one another a beer someday. But for now, I must fade away.

[Falke]

Dan and Tenni spare us the martyrdom and persecution complex. We're not idiots here, and I'd hope that most people and most bisexuals actually have morals and are not into cheating and lying to a spouse like you and Dan are.

The issues surrounding Dan have nothing to do with being bisexual or male and are only about a person who is a coward and lied and cheated on his wife.

Dan, you made a choice to cheat and lie to your wife. Own up to it.

Based on your original post and what you said to the religious gay man because you lied and cheated on your wife it would end your marriage. Now that this is happening don't bitch about it since it's what you knew would happen in the first place by lying and cheating on your wife.

Now you're going to have to live with the consequences of lying and cheating on your wife. Quit complaining about how this somehow is not fair or how it's wrong since you made the personal choice to do this to your wife instead of coming out to her and being honest when you first got married and before you lied and cheated on her.

You've shown that you do not care for your wife or care about your marriage to her.

A divorce in this case is a good thing since she deserves a better man who does not lie and cheat on her like you did. She deserves a better spouse than someone like you ever will be to anyone.

Tenni, someone getting angry at their spouse lying and cheating on them is not a reflection of what you call mainstream heterosexual values.

I don't know of anyone, and that includes other bisexuals and gay men who would put up with a spouse lying and cheating on them. This has nothing to do with someone being heterosexual or bisexual and closeted.

Dan, bisexuals like you that lie and cheat give us all a bad name.

No you're not a pariah to gay men and heterosexuals just because you are bisexual. You made a choice to lie and cheat on a spouse and it has nothing to do with being bisexual so quit claiming that it somehow does.

A bisexual man cheating with another man is cheating for the same reasons as if he's cheating with a woman who is not his wife. Lying and cheating are wrong no matter who it is done with and the person's sexuality and gender, and their partner's sexuality and gender do not matter.

This topic is only about a spouse lying and cheating on another spouse.

It has nothing to do with Dan's sexuality or bisexuality at all.

I do not feel either empathy or sympathy for someone who made a personal choice to lie and cheat on their spouse, then when their spouse finds out they've been lying and cheating all along wants to end the marriage for a good reason.

I have to go with this, but a more toned down version.

The bottom line is, yeah it sucks and yeah Dan is trying to correct the situation, but this wasn't a one-time thing, but years worth. If I were his lover he would be out the door for that magnitude of a breech of trust. Hopefully lessons are taken from this to the next relationship, or in his current one if things work out.

[DuckiesDarling]

Bottom line Dan screwed up, he knows he screwed up, he has admitted he knows he screwed up and he has said he is sorry he screwed up. He also states he will not lie to his partner anymore, most especially not by saying he will be 100% faithful if they continue the marriage.

The price of coming out?? Trust. It's gone. Even if they have a miracle and are able to work this out, the trust is still shattered. It's like a broken mirror and trying to pick up the pieces is going to cut them both and they will bleed. Only time will tell if the wounds are fatal or not, for now I have them BOTH in my thoughts and wish them well.

[mikey3000]

I have to still suport Dan for finally comming out. It mustn't have been easy. I'm guessing that he has been everything to everybody else and hiding is true self for way too long. He knew what might happen comming out to his wife, and deep down maybe he expected it. Maybe this was his way instead of saying, "hey look honey, I love you still, but do nothing for me anymore so I'm moving on. Thanks and see ya!" Would she still have been hurt? I bet, so no matter what he did, she still would have been hurt. it's called a loose loose situation, cause I'm sure no one feels like they've won. So sad really.

All the best to you Dan.

[Falke]

Bottom line Dan screwed up, he knows he screwed up, he has admitted he knows he screwed up and he has said he is sorry he screwed up. He also states he will not lie to his partner anymore, most especially not by saying he will be 100% faithful if they continue the marriage.

The price of coming out?? Trust. It's gone. Even if they have a miracle and are able to work this out, the trust is still shattered. It's like a broken mirror and trying to pick up the pieces is going to cut them both and they will bleed. Only time will tell if the wounds are fatal or not, for now I have them BOTH in my thoughts and wish them well.

Wow, very well said.

[coyotedude]

Bottom line Dan screwed up, he knows he screwed up, he has admitted he knows he screwed up and he has said he is sorry he screwed up. He also states he will not lie to his partner anymore, most especially not by saying he will be 100% faithful if they continue the marriage.

The price of coming out?? Trust. It's gone. Even if they have a miracle and are able to work this out, the trust is still shattered. It's like a broken mirror and trying to pick up the pieces is going to cut them both and they will bleed. Only time will tell if the wounds are fatal or not, for now I have them BOTH in my thoughts and wish them well.

This pretty much sums up the entire episode, I think.

The only thing I would add is that the price of coming out is different for different people. For some, the results can be devastating; for others, not as much. It depends in part on who you are coming out to: yourself, your partner, your children, your family, your friends, your co-workers.

There is a difference between coming out as bisexual and acknowledging that you have broken the rules of your relationship with a partner. I think we have to be careful not to confuse the two.

Dan, you and your wife have my sympathy during this difficult time.

Peace

[danreidbarmi]

There is a difference between coming out as bisexual and acknowledging that you have broken the rules of your relationship with a partner. I think we have to be careful not to confuse the two.

Dan, you and your wife have my sympathy during this difficult time.

Peace

That is an important part of what I am learning from this discussion. Thank you for putting this truth so succinctly. When one is compartmentalizing one's own behavior, it's pretty much impossible to see this perspective. I wish I could tell you all how important it is for me to understand what might seems simple and fundamental for most people, but has failed to impale my head for far too long.

[coyotedude]

That is an important part of what I am learning from this discussion. Thank you for putting this truth so succinctly. When one is compartmentalizing one's own behavior, it's pretty much impossible to see this perspective. I wish I could tell you all how important it is for me to understand what might seems simple and fundamental for most people, but has failed to impale my head for far too long.

Oh, none of this is simple! That's one reason communities like this exist: to support one another and help each other see the forest amid the trees.

What has bitten you is dishonesty, not bisexuality. Would your actions have been accepted by your wife if you had been straight and sleeping around with other women? Similarly, if you were a bisexual man in a committed closed relationship with a gay man but seeing women secretly on the side, how would your partner react?

Bisexuality did not cause you to make your choices. Bisexuality is an integral part of who you are. But it's up to you to choose how to live your life.

I say these things not to condemn you, because it is not my place to condemn. Like every other person on this site, I am only a human being, with my own foibles and flaws. (Just ask Mrs. Coyote.)

Had the issue been bisexuality alone, it could still be a hard pill for your partner to swallow. Coming out has ended its share of marriages, and many stay in the closet precisely out of fear of losing everything.

I think it's important to point out, however, that you have not only been dishonest to your partner, but to yourself as well. Often the hardest person to come out to is not your partner or your parents or even complete strangers. It's coming out to yourself.

What is the price of coming out, you ask?

What is the price of honesty? What is the price of being true to yourself? And how do you balance that with the sacred commitments you have made to those you love and care for?

There are no easy answers. But we're all in this together.

Peace

[Guitarz133]

I have had an ad here for a while. but never "followed through". Something was always was holding me back. Dan's behavior clarified the issue for me. I love my wife too much to cheat on her. It really is very simple.

Thanks, Dan for sharing your story.

[crazy_cat_lady]

You're getting what you deserve and getting what you asked for.

This is a real life example of why you should come out to a spouse when you are getting to know them and dating them before you are married or very early on in the relationship or marriage.

Do not wait until decades later after lying to them and cheating on them a lot like Dan did. This is not living honestly or being honest at all.

I don't feel bad for you since it was your choice to stay closeted and cheat on your wife.

Your wife should divorce you because of how you cheated on her and lied about it for decades.

I don't blame her for getting in the process of ending the marriage. If I were in a relationship with someone and they told me they'd been lying and cheating on me all along I'd divorce them and end the relationship.

Just because you are bisexual that does not mean that you have to cheat on a spouse or that you must have an open relationship.

Lying and cheating on a spouse just because you are bisexual does not mean that someone that is bisexual has to do this to be themselves, be their true self, or live honestly as a bisexual person. :rolleyes:The only problem I see with this comment is what if they didn't know they were bi before the marrage or while dateing or even in the early years of it? then what?

[danreidbarmi]

What has bitten you is dishonesty, not bisexuality.

I think it's important to point out, however, that you have not only been dishonest to your partner, but to yourself as well. Often the hardest person to come out to is not your partner or your parents or even complete strangers. It's coming out to yourself.

What is the price of coming out, you ask?

What is the price of honesty? What is the price of being true to yourself? And how do you balance that with the sacred commitments you have made to those you love and care for?

There are no easy answers. But we're all in this together.

Peace

These are caring, compassionate words, and absolutely true. Over these last nine, very difficult days, whenever I've had the chance to communicate with my wife, I have reminded her that I wasn't just lying to her. In order to do that, I had to lie to myself first...

Last night, she and I had a good talk. I was surprised that she really wanted to know details. That's never been her nature. Over the last week, she's been making up scenarios, fabricating possible relationships in her imagination. Every male friendship I've had for the last ten years has fallen under her suspicion. Now, she wanted to know when, where, what, how, and with whom. She listened, made some disgusted faces, said some sarcastic, defensive things, but it was good. I was honest, as kind as possible, and I think she heard me. (I really haven't participated in a whole lot of extremely risky behavior, but that doesn't excuse the dangerous things I have done, not by any means.)

You point out that I am now paying the price of honesty. That is so true. "What would you prefer, Darling?" I asked her, "that I keep lying to you, that I just tell you the part of the story I think you can accept? 'I met a guy in a bar at that conference in June. One thing led to another, and I think maybe I'm attracted to men.'" Saying that would have got me off the hook, spared us the devastation I've caused, not only by coming out, but by confessing that I've been acting the cad for some time now.

The reality is this, in my situation (and only mine), dishonesty, being untrue to my marriage vows is the real crime, not my sexuality. But, an unrelenting, undeniable need to answer my homosexual desires led me to cheat. I was too weak to resist. So, altho it was the cheating that broke the marriage, it was the compulsion that led to the cheating. None of these factors could exist alone.

[tenni]

If they are going out and having anonymous sex with strangers like danreidbarmi did, have had sexual experiences with the same gender before, and are lying and cheating on a spouse like he did they know that they're not heterosexual and sometimes they will stay in the closet like he did and continue to lie and cheat on a spouse and ruin a marriage and family like he has.

Umm So what should be done with these bisexual cads?

Shoot them? Hang them? Castrate them? Have CB(cheating bisexual) tatoo on their forehead?

What your solution bemyonly? What price should they pay?

[slipnslide]

Umm So what should be done with these bisexual cads?

Shoot them? Hang them? Castrate them? Have CB(cheating bisexual) tatoo on their forehead?

What your solution bemyonly? What price should they pay?

If you look at the disaster that is his life now I would suggest that karma is taking care of the situation.

[DuckiesDarling]

Umm So what should be done with these bisexual cads?

Shoot them? Hang them? Castrate them? Have CB(cheating bisexual) tatoo on their forehead?

What your solution bemyonly? What price should they pay?

Tenni, it's clear bemyonly1 is just a troll. Don't feed the troll.

[danreidbarmi]

Here's some good news, some progress: My wife has agreed to see a therapist referred by my therapist. She really needs somebody to talk to with a diploma. Her friends (and our mutual friends) have pledged their support for her, of course. But, even tho many of them are gay, they don't have professional expertise to help her through this difficult time. I'm happy that she is going to seek help.

Our conversations have been more civil and we've even had a few good hugs. This is a journey of many twists and turns. I'm learning a lot. Now, I understand that there are really three separate issues here: Number One is my infidelity (It's inexplicable now that I just didn't get that I was cheating. Now, it's hit me like a ton o' bricks, and I feel like the world's biggest and stupidest asshole). The second issue is my sexuality. The third is the possibility of a sex addiction. All of these issues interact, certainly, but they are all really separate from each other and could exist independently of each other. I'm not compartmentalizing by coming to this realization, just recognizing that being a philandering liar is the first and most important thing to deal with (when I thought it was coming to terms with my sexuality).

Life is a freakin' trip, isn't it.

[slipnslide]

Life is a freakin' trip, isn't it.

. . .and then we die.

Thinking about your three issues and I believe one is condemnable, one is normal, and one is treatable. I'll let you arrange them as you see fit. :)

[just4mefc]

Here's some good news, some progress: My wife has agreed to see a therapist referred by my therapist. She really needs somebody to talk to with a diploma. Her friends (and our mutual friends) have pledged their support for her, of course. But, even tho many of them are gay, they don't have professional expertise to help her through this difficult time. I'm happy that she is going to seek help.

Our conversations have been more civil and we've even had a few good hugs. This is a journey of many twists and turns. I'm learning a lot. Now, I understand that there are really three separate issues here: Number One is my infidelity (It's inexplicable now that I just didn't get that I was cheating. Now, it's hit me like a ton o' bricks, and I feel like the world's biggest and stupidest asshole). The second issue is my sexuality. The third is the possibility of a sex addiction. All of these issues interact, certainly, but they are all really separate from each other and could exist independently of each other. I'm not compartmentalizing by coming to this realization, just recognizing that being a philandering liar is the first and most important thing to deal with (when I thought it was coming to terms with my sexuality).

Life is a freakin' trip, isn't it.

Now you are really fighting to keep your life and learn and grow. Keep it up. This IS gonna hurt but you can handle it.

[danreidbarmi]

. . .and then we die.

Thinking about your three issues and I believe one is condemnable, one is normal, and one is treatable. I'll let you arrange them as you see fit. :)

Wow, I'm a writer, and I didn't even know that "condemnable" was a word. My wife agrees with how I've prioritized these issues, as does my therapist. Now I've got your permission to arrange them "as I see fit" AND a smiley face. I'm so blessed!

All sarcasm aside, I may be way late to the party, but I'm making a sincere effort to become a better human being. Certainly you have a perfect right to "condemn" my past actions, as does my poor spouse. But, come on! When do you stop kicking a man when he's at his absolute lowest point?

[tenni]

Dan
Please just don't become like some reformed smokers...righteous, condemning and all..:cool::bigrin:

[slipnslide]

All sarcasm aside, I may be way late to the party, but I'm making a sincere effort to become a better human being. Certainly you have a perfect right to "condemn" my past actions, as does my poor spouse. But, come on! When do you stop kicking a man when he's at his absolute lowest point?

In fairness, I'm condemning the action, not the man. We all do stupid things, and if we define condemn as "express disapproval of" then I don't think saying that about your actions is unfair.

I was happy to see that your wife is starting to process this and wants outside help. It would be wonderful if you two pull through this awful situation. I can't imagine the thoughts in your head, but I have been there where you wake up in the morning and for a few seconds you feel great until you remember the mess you're in.

One way or another, this in time will pass. Good luck with the work between here and there.

[danreidbarmi]

In fairness, I'm condemning the action, not the man. We all do stupid things, and if we define condemn as "express disapproval of" then I don't think saying that about your actions is unfair.

You are absolutely right in that my actions were "condemnable" (my new word of the day). My mistake that I felt as though you were condemning me and not what I did. (I remember GW Bush saying that the radicals who crashed planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were "evil." I don't think it's our responsibility as humans to make that kind of judgment. We can certainly say that what they did was "evil," but it is not up to us to decide who is "evil" and who is "holy.")

Thank you for pointing out that distinction, and for your kind and supportive words, too.

Dan

[rutemptedalso]

I have came out to my wife recently. She doesn't like it of course. After I was able to assure her that my family and her are the most important thing in the world to me, we were finally able to sit down and talk. I don't imagine that I'll ever be able to be with another man and stay married to her. Just being honest with myself and her has changed me for the better. Yeah, I still have those days when I want to be with a man really bad but now I have someone to talk to about it. I'm not able to go into detail with her but the hug I get from her helps.

Anyone can get a divorce but it takes two special people to hold it together!!!
All you two have to do is become those two special people.

[danreidbarmi]

Anyone can get a divorce but it takes two special people to hold it together!!!
All you two have to do is become those two special people.

Thank you for sharing. I'm glad you and your spouse have come to an agreement that works for you. However, I'm suspect that you will be able to fulfill your end of the bargain. I mean, here you are on this site using the name, "rutemptedalso." Maybe you're making your best effort to be faithful and straight, but be careful what you promise. I thought I had put my "gay phase" behind me years ago. But, when I suddenly found myself in a position (for no fault of my own, btw) to be tempted, I succumbed and found myself spiraling into a cycle of lying (both to myself and to my wife) and cheating, while fooling myself that, because I wasn't with women, I wasn't being unfaithful.

My family is also dearly important to me. I want to die because I've hurt my sweet loving wife so severely. I treasure my kids. But, I can't make a promise that I'm not sure I can keep, and my wife will not stay in a non-monogamous marriage. That is the impasse, simple as that. We will not come to the kind of understanding you and your wife have. So, "all you have to do is become those special people" does not apply here. We are both very special people. More than anything, I want to stay married to her, to live with her. But, I'm absolutely finished with living a lie, so I have to make the ultimate sacrifice to live in honesty. Thus, these two special people will very likely be separate special people in the future.

[rutemptedalso]

It's true that maybe someday I'll be in the same boat that you are. A lot of my desire comes from a lack of effection as a child. It's really hard for me to get close to anyone including my wife and kids. I just want to be close to male. Someone that I can turn to and trust. Maybe not even in a sexual way. If it came to that I think I'd be ok with it. I can understand my wife being torn up by it. I'm just going to be patient and hopefully if that someone comes along she'll be able to trust us and not judge us. I don't think that will ever happen but why give up hope.

[danreidbarmi]

I understand the hope you refer to. Even though I know, realistically, that my marriage will never really recover, I want whatever part of it I can hang onto.

The desperation is excruciating. I'm not looking for sympathy, but the burden of having created such destruction is awful. To feel this immeasurable remorse for what I've done so unthinkingly and to take on her pain as well is beyond anything I've ever experienced. The grief of losing my brother 11 months ago was enormous. But, I didn't kill him. I killed my marriage, and to a certain degree, my wife, because she will never be able to believe in me again the way she once did.

[void()]

I hope you can have a merry (http://www.vgg.com/furnitureporn/graphics/office7.jpg) day. Because sometimes you need to laugh (http://www.vgg.com/furnitureporn/graphics/fp3.gif).

[danreidbarmi]

I hope you can have a merry (http://www.vgg.com/furnitureporn/graphics/office7.jpg) day. Because sometimes you need to laugh (http://www.vgg.com/furnitureporn/graphics/fp3.gif).

So true. A laugh can be so healing. I usually try to find the levity in every situation. My dear wife, who is funnier than hell, hasn't found much to laugh about for about 12 days now. That's on me. But, in the meantime, I should be seeking joy and laughter wherever I can find it (without guilt). Thanks for the reminder.

[ninetythree]

For many women the idea of bisexuality is more approachable if there hasn't been any MM contact and it's just an abstract.

Yep. I told my wife of my same-sex attraction before ever acting on it. We're 20 years into marriage. She has been extremely accepting, as I hoped she would be.

[danreidbarmi]

Yep. I told my wife of my same-sex attraction before ever acting on it. We're 20 years into marriage. She has been extremely accepting, as I hoped she would be.

Bully for you! Obviously that would have been a better choice. Live and learn, I guess. I made the wrong choice. You did it all absolutely correctly. Now, you can gloat, while I lose everything. Feel better?

[NotLostJustWandering]

I have had an ad here for a while. but never "followed through". Something was always was holding me back. Dan's behavior clarified the issue for me. I love my wife too much to cheat on her. It really is very simple.

Thanks, Dan for sharing your story.

I think this is reason enough for the moralize-and-condemn crowd to realize that good can come from someone coming forward and admitting their mistakes, and that we ought to encourage it.

[danreidbarmi]

I think this is reason enough for the moralize-and-condemn crowd to realize that good can come from someone coming forward and admitting their mistakes, and that we ought to encourage it.

This is a great perspective. And, I'm pleased that my story inspired another man to think twice before he made what might possible be a huge mistake.

However, for those of us who have been unable to curb our compulsions, a "decision" like that is sometimes impossible and a promise to never act on those compulsions is not necessarily keepable. As I have decided to live honestly and openly, I cannot make such a promise, and so, my marriage is likely over.

My wife keeps longing for a different past, saying that, had I come to her and been honest about my desires before I acted on them, that we might not be looking at the end today. But, ya can't unring a bell. I can only take a deep breath move ahead from here, try to live with my shame and remorse, and figure it out day by day. If me seeking to make some sense of this in this forum helps someone else, then my personal tragedy hasn't been completely in vain.

Thnx, I appreciate these positive words.