US and Universal Healthcare

[darkeyes]

In a week where I have smiled much, and good things have happened to me, not the least of which is the beginning of ver nice long summer hols, it was nice to learn of something i know is controversial and know it is much opposed in the US.. but no matter.. the Supreme court decision on Obamacare is certainly one of the nicest, and if it does not affect me personally, and imperfect as it is and if it is not the way I believe universal health care should be offered to the people of a nation, that is of no consequence.. what is of great consequence is that millions who have no health care will, and the savings in life and the improvement in the health of a nation will far outweigh any imperfections... it will be bumpy ride its implementation and its operation, but if allowed to stand by a new congress, as I fully expect it will, in a decade or so, most Americans will wonder what the fuss was about and few will wish to return to the bad old days prior to 2014... the proof of the pudding is in the eating it is said.. and universal healthcare for all is a very delicious pudding indeed..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...healthcare-usa

[DuckiesDarling]

Actually, Fran, as it stands it is not Universal Healthcare. It was aimed to make it easier for people to get healthcare but there are still going to be companies that will pay a fine rather than provide healthcare for employees as it will be CHEAPER. There will be a tax that will be implemented on people who CAN afford but choose not to have health insurance. The proof in the pudding as you say will be who is determined to AFFORD healthcare, what other bills will they take into account that must be paid to enjoy any standard of living. You are right, it doesn't affect you, and it will never affect you, neither for better or worse. So you may have it over there but at this point it will not do a whole heck of a lot. We have a very long way to go on fixing our healthcare system but there are no penalties at the federal level for states that choose not to change the Medicaid limits and until there is a federal standard for all states to meet or lose the funding... it won't get better. But even as far in the hole as we go on healthcare we still get treated regardless of ability to pay.

[darkeyes]

Actually, Fran, as it stands it is not Universal Healthcare. It was aimed to make it easier for people to get healthcare but there are still going to be companies that will pay a fine rather than provide healthcare for employees as it will be CHEAPER. There will be a tax that will be implemented on people who CAN afford but choose not to have health insurance. The proof in the pudding as you say will be who is determined to AFFORD healthcare, what other bills will they take into account that must be paid to enjoy any standard of living. You are right, it doesn't affect you, and it will never affect you, neither for better or worse. So you may have it over there but at this point it will not do a whole heck of a lot. We have a very long way to go on fixing our healthcare system but there are no penalties at the federal level for states that choose not to change the Medicaid limits and until there is a federal standard for all states to meet or lose the funding... it won't get better. But even as far in the hole as we go on healthcare we still get treated regardless of ability to pay.

The part I have emboldened is my major quibble with what u say.. at present as I understand it, all are able to get emergency treatment but it is existing and new illnesses many of which are long term and life threatening where the US currently falls down very badly.. families totalling some 60 million people are deprived this right currently and it is that which presently stops the US having a system of universal healthcare.. and the fact that, upon insurance premiums running out, Many are abandoned in mid treatment because they are unable to afford it or they are unable to afford after care once medical treatment is complete.. even after emergency treatment the poor and others with no insurance either personally or through work have no after care and this prevents many from fully recovering..

"Obamacare" for all its faults and the fact that it is a bit piece meal and its operation is bound to be patchy.. all health services are patchy, but erradicting the problems is for Americans to sort out...to put it politely offers the opportunity for all of those people to be treated other than on a grace and favour basis (if they are lucky, or not at all.. it will save millions from personal bankruptcy and stress because of medical bills and can only be good for america and Americans.. yes it will be imperfect and it will have huge problems.. companies will cut up rough and there will be many struggles to make it work.. but however people are treated.. for the first time every US citizen will have a right to medical treatment whatever the illness, not simply for emergencies.. that I call universal health care.. not a national health service as I understand it but a national health service just the same..

There was much opposition to the creation of the NHS here too buy private companies, the medical profession and the wealthy and privileged, but if there are arguments about how it is organised and run and how its is paid for, there is no argument that it should be made available to all for emergency, long medium or short term illness irrespective of ability to pay...

[biguy71]

National health insurance is the way to go. Until we institute that, any other reforms are basically like sticking a bandaid on a bullet wound.

[darkeyes]

No argument from me on that..

[HappyHedonic]

Speaking as an American, as one who works in health care, as one whos primary partner is European, I am very happy that the Affordable Care Act will be implemented. Yes, it is flawed but it is movement in the right direction. To have done nothing to change the system was costing the US economy in ways that have long term repercussions. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing or nothing different and still expecting different results.

[falcondfw]

Fran, love, you knew I would not stay quiet on this one. lol.

1. DD is right. Companies will opt to pay the fine, as will individuals, thus defeating the purpose of giving health care to "everyone".
2. If the law is so bloody fantastic, why has Congress exempted itself? Why have over 1500 exceptions been given to contributors of Obama's re-election campaign?
3. If this is a law to help people, why is it necessary to hire 16,000 IRS (Internal Revenue Service) agents to enforce it?
4. Obama promised the law would be "revenue neutral". So why does the politically neutral CBO estimate the law will now cost over 675 BILLION dollars? And the estimate keeps going up.
5. If this is a law to get people insured, why have health care Premiums gone up 27% per year since it was passed in 2009? The law has not even started yet, for the most part. It doesn't until 2013.

I could go on for days about why this is a VERY bad law. Is the US Healhcare system perfect? far from it. Is what I saw in London perfect? hell no. But at least in the US, my healthcare choices were between me and the person with the knowledge, my doctor.

I do not need the government to tell me to get healthcare when I need it. I do not need the government to tell my doctor how much healthcare I need. And I sure as hell do not need the government to FORCE me to buy a product from a private company!!! What's next? The government thinks we need to go solar so they order every homeowner to retrofit their home with at least 20 solar panels? At a cost of $10,000 per home? Seriously? When those panels are only a maximum of 14% efficient? Or the government thinks I need to eat more Broccoli. But I don't want to. So they force me to buy it by either providing a subsidy to broccoli growers, making it so much cheaper than spinach, or they tax me if I do not eat enough broccoli in a year? Guess what? With this Supreme Court ruling the government now has the power to do that. Thanks Traitor Roberts!

There are MANY reforms that could have been implemented to fix the problems. WITHOUT resorting to forcing people into a government run healthcare system. Tort reform. The power to purchase insurance across state lines. Etc. Etc. All would have lowered costs and made care more affordable (especially tort reform). We do not need the government making healthcare decisions for us. I want that between my doctor and me. No one else (ok. maybe mom should know).

Bad law. Bad Supreme Court decision. I pray to God it can be repealed after the November elections.

[darkeyes]

Fran, love, you knew I would not stay quiet on this one. lol.

1. DD is right. Companies will opt to pay the fine, as will individuals, thus defeating the purpose of giving health care to "everyone".
2. If the law is so bloody fantastic, why has Congress exempted itself? Why have over 1500 exceptions been given to contributors of Obama's re-election campaign?
3. If this is a law to help people, why is it necessary to hire 16,000 IRS (Internal Revenue Service) agents to enforce it?
4. Obama promised the law would be "revenue neutral". So why does the politically neutral CBO estimate the law will now cost over 675 BILLION dollars? And the estimate keeps going up.
5. If this is a law to get people insured, why have health care Premiums gone up 27% per year since it was passed in 2009? The law has not even started yet, for the most part. It doesn't until 2013.

I could go on for days about why this is a VERY bad law. Is the US Healhcare system perfect? far from it. Is what I saw in London perfect? hell no. But at least in the US, my healthcare choices were between me and the person with the knowledge, my doctor.

I do not need the government to tell me to get healthcare when I need it. I do not need the government to tell my doctor how much healthcare I need. And I sure as hell do not need the government to FORCE me to buy a product from a private company!!! What's next? The government thinks we need to go solar so they order every homeowner to retrofit their home with at least 20 solar panels? At a cost of $10,000 per home? Seriously? When those panels are only a maximum of 14% efficient? Or the government thinks I need to eat more Broccoli. But I don't want to. So they force me to buy it by either providing a subsidy to broccoli growers, making it so much cheaper than spinach, or they tax me if I do not eat enough broccoli in a year? Guess what? With this Supreme Court ruling the government now has the power to do that. Thanks Traitor Roberts!

There are MANY reforms that could have been implemented to fix the problems. WITHOUT resorting to forcing people into a government run healthcare system. Tort reform. The power to purchase insurance across state lines. Etc. Etc. All would have lowered costs and made care more affordable (especially tort reform). We do not need the government making healthcare decisions for us. I want that between my doctor and me. No one else (ok. maybe mom should know).

Bad law. Bad Supreme Court decision. I pray to God it can be repealed after the November elections.

I'm not saying it is a good law.. I am saying that it is a sight better than u have now...if people try and screw with it then it is up to government and the people to make sure it isn't screwed with.. i know the NHS is far from perfect and have said so.. no system of health care ever shall be perfect.. I wish.. but health care should be available to all when it is needed.. that's the intention behind what is being implemented.. that is not the state of play now..

Insurance whether by private, company or national health insurance through a tax is there to pay in case it is needed.. not if... not just for u.. but ur children wife, family and all dependents.. for all people irrespective of income.. the ability to pay. Millions in this country do not pay the national health insurance.. they can't.. but millions of them did, and will again...but most do and are glad to for it is insurance against hard times and ill health.. not when they have hard times and ill heallth.. but if.. not when their families have hard times and ill health, but in case.. few argue with it.. a few thousand rich nobs and some Tory politicians and some other miserable stingy getts who don't care about human life (except maybe their own) and are for themselves .. insurance for health like any other type of insurance is in case it is needed... and health insurance is paid by all those in work because of the altruistic attitude of the British people and because they do not believe that because u are poor.. they recognise its importance to them and the country as a whole... u should have no access to good quality health care from the day u are born, until the day u die.... the NHS has rough patches and weaknesses on that score but essentially that's how it works and overall it works well.. knowing that many are just too poor to be able to pay, and the tax system caters for that.. it means no-one is denied treatment on the basis of inability to pay.. no one need sell their house or be bankrupted because of ill health.. it means we have a society which still cares for people in some ways more than we care for money..

You're right.. it is a bad bill.. and it is a bad system.. but it is far, far better than you have now.. and if it is repealed.. the President and Congress responsible will be condemned by history unless it is repealed to put something better in its place..

[æonpax]

In a week where I have smiled much, and good things have happened to me, not the least of which is the beginning of ver nice long summer hols, it was nice to learn of something i know is controversial and know it is much opposed in the US.. but no matter.. the Supreme court decision on Obamacare is certainly one of the nicest, and if it does not affect me personally, and imperfect as it is and if it is not the way I believe universal health care should be offered to the people of a nation, that is of no consequence.. what is of great consequence is that millions who have no health care will, and the savings in life and the improvement in the health of a nation will far outweigh any imperfections... it will be bumpy ride its implementation and its operation, but if allowed to stand by a new congress, as I fully expect it will, in a decade or so, most Americans will wonder what the fuss was about and few will wish to return to the bad old days prior to 2014... the proof of the pudding is in the eating it is said.. and universal healthcare for all is a very delicious pudding indeed..http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...healthcare-usa

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) didn’t go anywhere near far enough as it should have. Still, something is better than nothing through. Most people don’t understand it at all, especially those who get their news from the mainstream corporate controlled propaganda outlets or from their ideological masters. Here’s a rather good explanation of what it is, click on the “Introduction” video…. http://libguides.law.ucla.edu/PPACA

As I see it, a single-payer health care system is the only way to go at this point.

If one does any research as to when and why heath care costs started spiraling out of control, one must start with Ronald Reagan and his deregulation of banking but that’s another long, sordid story.

Prior to St. Reagan, health care insurance was in the hands of only a few insurer’s, most notably; Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Federal law at the time prohibited them or any heath insurer from making over 12% profit. The costs were down because the insurers spread any profit it gained back throughout the system. This way, most any employer could afford to offer it very cheaply to an employee.

Also, most all hospitals in the US were owned and run by religious or fraternal organizations whom are not-for-profit. Any profit that was made was put into caring for the poor and indigent. There was no law that mandated it....until the corporates took over.

Another thing, there were no “clinics” per se prior to Reagan. Most all doctors had their own practice and their own offices. Now, if anyone was getting rich out of this, it was the doctors…at the time. Still, the system worked very well, until Reagan came into office.

The US cannot turn back the clock. The laws of deregulation have spread so wide as to make it impossible. The infestation or infection of the for-profit mantra has so permeated heath care that unfortunately, “single payer” is the only way to go.

Obamacare, as some call it, is hardly perfect but it’s a start.

[falcondfw]

I'm not saying it is a good law.. I am saying that it is a sight better than u have now...if people try and screw with it then it is up to government and the people to make sure it isn't screwed with.. i know the NHS is far from perfect and have said so.. no system of health care ever shall be perfect.. I wish.. but health care should be available to all when it is needed.. that's the intention behind what is being implemented.. that is not the state of play now..

Insurance whether by private, company or national health insurance through a tax is there to pay in case it is needed.. not if... not just for u.. but ur children wife, family and all dependents.. for all people irrespective of income.. the ability to pay. Millions in this country do not pay the national health insurance.. they can't.. but millions of them did, and will again...but most do and are glad to for it is insurance against hard times and ill health.. not when they have hard times and ill heallth.. but if.. not when their families have hard times and ill health, but in case.. few argue with it.. a few thousand rich nobs and some Tory politicians and some other miserable stingy getts who don't care about human life (except maybe their own) and are for themselves .. insurance for health like any other type of insurance is in case it is needed... and health insurance is paid by all those in work because of the altruistic attitude of the British people and because they do not believe that because u are poor.. they recognise its importance to them and the country as a whole... u should have no access to good quality health care from the day u are born, until the day u die.... the NHS has rough patches and weaknesses on that score but essentially that's how it works and overall it works well.. knowing that many are just too poor to be able to pay, and the tax system caters for that.. it means no-one is denied treatment on the basis of inability to pay.. no one need sell their house or be bankrupted because of ill health.. it means we have a society which still cares for people in some ways more than we care for money..

You're right.. it is a bad bill.. and it is a bad system.. but it is far, far better than you have now.. and if it is repealed.. the President and Congress responsible will be condemned by history unless it is repealed to put something better in its place..

Fran,

Have you been to the US in the past 10 years?

Have you had to go to the hospital or clinic when you were here?

EVERYONE in this country, under the current system, gets treated. EVERYONE!

Whether they can pay the bill after is another matter entirely. But that is why bankruptcy laws exist.
If you have not had to go to a doctor's office or clinic while you were here, you have no idea about the medical/insurance system, other than news reports. And honestly, those reports are so biased, you really have no idea.

Why do you thin it is that so many drug manufacturers come up with new, fantastic meds in the US? Do you hear of Indian companies doing this? NO!!!! It is because of the profit motive. Plain and simple.

The newer surgeries and treatments. Where were most of them, if not all, invented? That's right. The USA. Why do you think that happened? Simple. because, THEY HAVE A PROFIT MOTIVE!

Government control of health care leads to complacency and laziness. I saw it in London. I see it in the Philippines. Friends told me about it in Canada.

The statistics do not lie. Where do Canadians go for treatment they desperately need? That's right. The USA. Why? reasons ae too numerous to list. Talk to a Canadian.

Fran, I love you, and I totally respect you, but if you have not experienced the US healthcare system, you are only posting from a theoretical viewpoint And that does not work. We are not Europe and we never will be.

[falcondfw]

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) didn’t go anywhere near far enough as it should have. Still, something is better than nothing through. Most people don’t understand it at all, especially those who get their news from the mainstream corporate controlled propaganda outlets or from their ideological masters. Here’s a rather good explanation of what it is, click on the “Introduction” video…. http://libguides.law.ucla.edu/PPACA

As I see it, a single-payer health care system is the only way to go at this point.

If one does any research as to when and why heath care costs started spiraling out of control, one must start with Ronald Reagan and his deregulation of banking but that’s another long, sordid story.

Prior to St. Reagan, health care insurance was in the hands of only a few insurer’s, most notably; Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Federal law at the time prohibited them or any heath insurer from making over 12% profit. The costs were down because the insurers spread any profit it gained back throughout the system. This way, most any employer could afford to offer it very cheaply to an employee.

Also, most all hospitals in the US were owned and run by religious or fraternal organizations whom are not-for-profit. Any profit that was made was put into caring for the poor and indigent. There was no law that mandated it....until the corporates took over.

Another thing, there were no “clinics” per se prior to Reagan. Most all doctors had their own practice and their own offices. Now, if anyone was getting rich out of this, it was the doctors…at the time. Still, the system worked very well, until Reagan came into office.

The US cannot turn back the clock. The laws of deregulation have spread so wide as to make it impossible. The infestation or infection of the for-profit mantra has so permeated heath care that unfortunately, “single payer” is the only way to go.

Obamacare, as some call it, is hardly perfect but it’s a start.

Joan,

Everyone is entitled to their point of view.

But honestly, do us all a favor and move to Russia or the Ukraine.

Your views perfectly match that system.

[darkeyes]

Fran,

Have you been to the US in the past 10 years?

Have you had to go to the hospital or clinic when you were here?

EVERYONE in this country, under the current system, gets treated. EVERYONE!

Whether they can pay the bill after is another matter entirely. But that is why bankruptcy laws exist.
If you have not had to go to a doctor's office or clinic while you were here, you have no idea about the medical/insurance system, other than news reports. And honestly, those reports are so biased, you really have no idea.

Why do you thin it is that so many drug manufacturers come up with new, fantastic meds in the US? Do you hear of Indian companies doing this? NO!!!! It is because of the profit motive. Plain and simple.

The newer surgeries and treatments. Where were most of them, if not all, invented? That's right. The USA. Why do you think that happened? Simple. because, THEY HAVE A PROFIT MOTIVE!

Government control of health care leads to complacency and laziness. I saw it in London. I see it in the Philippines. Friends told me about it in Canada.

The statistics do not lie. Where do Canadians go for treatment they desperately need? That's right. The USA. Why? reasons ae too numerous to list. Talk to a Canadian.

Fran, I love you, and I totally respect you, but if you have not experienced the US healthcare system, you are only posting from a theoretical viewpoint And that does not work. We are not Europe and we never will be.

Everyone is entitled under Federal law to emergency treatment (Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labour Act of 1986).. I have already conceded that, but emergency treatment is not all treatement... some 45 million uninsured cannot afford (or refuse to pay in some cases) other forms of treatment which we would not consider emergency.. which is most medical treatment.. some get such treatment through charities and other government aid programmes but not all, and not all qualify, and because so many are unable to afford or qualify for treatment many do without and suffer accordingly... it is untrue to claim that all Americans are treated regardless...

I don't want u to be Europe as it happens.. I just want all Americans to have access to top quality health care no matter their economic circumstances and not to have to worry about money or keeping a roof over their heads......and for that treatment whatever it happens to be to start and continue until iits end.. not an end as decided by an insurance company because premiums have run out...the change in the law will not bring down the cost of insurance premiums or make treatment and medicines any more affordable.. economies of scale ensure that such costs are kept down in countries with publicly funded national health services.. you will not have that and so if I see what is to be is progress, it is very imperfect progress and will still cost the US and its people a mint more than it need.. but for 40 odd million Americans at least it will be a great improvement on what exists now and probably quite a few tens of millions more...

[darkeyes]

Joan,

Everyone is entitled to their point of view.

But honestly, do us all a favor and move to Russia or the Ukraine.

Your views perfectly match that system.

Childish and petty Falcon, hun, and the call of all who do not want change... none of our societies are perfect and even the worst of societies has much to teach us.. because we wish to change the place we live in does not mean we wish to leave it... what it means is we wish to see it better... you may not like it, but many don't like the things you believe in.. do as u have said to me, and I think Joan at some stage, babes.. show some class and accept that there are those who don't agree with u!!!!

[jonric]

Actually, you would think that there are some things that can't qualify as emergencies, but that is just not the case. On numerous occasions, I have gone to an emergency room to find some parent with a child waiting to see a doctor for their runny nose (not an exaggeration). These people take up resources of people with real emergencies, but they know that if they go there, they have to be treated.
And don't be fooled by anyone worrying about food on the table or a roof over their head. Landlords must accept tenants with Title X (free rent) and food stamps have been replaced with debit cards.

[IndyBiFun]

I agree with Falcondfw.

This is a very bad law that goes way beyond healthcare.

Why anyone wants more federal governemtn in their life dictating what they can and cannot do is beyond. me.

The Constitution limits the size and power of the federal geovernment and this law does the opposite. Just wait and see what other monsters come out of this Pandora's box.

Europe with all of their Socialist beliefs are going flat broke before our eyes and the US decides to go down the same road.

[darkeyes]

I agree with Falcondfw.

This is a very bad law that goes way beyond healthcare.

Why anyone wants more federal governemtn in their life dictating what they can and cannot do is beyond. me.

The Constitution limits the size and power of the federal geovernment and this law does the opposite. Just wait and see what other monsters come out of this Pandora's box.

Europe with all of their Socialist beliefs are going flat broke before our eyes and the US decides to go down the same road.

I do wish u lot on other side of the pond would realise that Europe is 'bout as socialist as Roosevelt..and I mean Teddy, not Frank..

[æonpax]

I do wish u lot on other side of the pond would realise that Europe is 'bout as socialist as Roosevelt..and I mean Teddy, not Frank..

Problem here Fran is most Americans are mis or under informed about The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) or Obamacare. They get their information from biased sources (political pundits, faux news…actually any corporate news source) which is a shame. I do understand the bill itself is about a 1,000 pages and I daresay most Americans don’t have an attention span long enough to sit through a brainless TV sitcom much less any reasonable explanation of PPACA.

Here’s a good explanation and discussion on the PPACA from a news site I belong to, Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/tb/vbkfm

Also, here is a point by point outline and explination (same site) - http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikei..._pointbypoint/

I have hundreds of reasons why I think the “Single payer” system is the best way to go and about equal amount of reasons why only complete idiot would trust our present, “for-profit” corporate system….leastways, without government oversight.

Take the need for this law; The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...tive_Labor_Act One of the first things the corporates did when they got their filthy hands into the hospital system was to turn away people who could not pay. It’s called “patient dumping.” Mind you, these are emergencies but hey…profit are more important than people.

Now speaking of the corporates, they do NOT act in our best interest. Check this out; GlaxoSmithKline to pay $3 billion for health fraud - http://www.jsonline.com/news/usandwo...161127155.html This is just the tip of the the scam health care iceberg.

Moving right along, I keep hearing this “we have the best medical system in the world”. That’s debatable. We do have the most costly - http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wo...93-conclusion/ but definitely NOT quality. The New England Journal Of Medicine ranks the US 37 in overall health care performance, - http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0910064

Fran, if you can read only one thing, read this; 50 U.S. Health Care Statistics That Will Absolutely Astonish [Make] You [Puke]. - http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...y-astonish-you

One thing for sure, this issue is kicking up a lot of debate but little intelligent discussion.

[void()]

I think this is relevant. This one also. I am glad to have learned medicaid's availability scope has increased. Now, in conjunction with exchanges we may afford health insurance. I am also glad to learn the feds will have more say over treatment quality and all will receive equal treatment. Once the feds establish a standard of care, there will be fed or state hospitals, medical research facilities. This will help lower costs for everyone whilst continually raising the standard of care. It is worth an extra five to ten percent tax increase across the board for all imho.

If that makes me a socialist, go blow it out your rectum, because I don't much care. We need better than we have, deserve it actually. Greatest nation on Earth, sure, just look back into the late 1920's to 1930's, hobos, vagabonds, mentally ill were sterilized, poor too, eugenics in America. I strongly disagree with the darker aspects of eugenics, Hitler's notions for another example. A sane and reasonable approach to population control through birth control, access to abortion are okay (again mho). Better healthcare and lower costs for it, sound good too. If it means we need to think differently, then think differently. At least you'd be thinking.

[falcondfw]

Ok.
All of you advocating Universal Healthcare, Obamacare, or an eventual single payer system need a reality check.

1. Obamacare (supposedly) adds 30,000,000 currently uninsured people to the roles, But it requires many additional things to be covered for the existing as well as the new patients.

2. Obamacare CUTS, yes, I said cuts, $500,000,000,000 from Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements to doctors and hospitals.

3. Who do you think pays for the additional requirements, additional enrollees, and reduced reimbursements?

Answer = taxpayers.

However, considering employment rolls in the private sector have shrunk and there are millions of fewer TAXPAYERS to support the system, what will happen?

Answer = collapse of Obamacare, Medicare, and any single payer system, just like is happening all over Europe.

Government workers are paid from our taxes. Obamacare requires 16,000 new IRS agents (government paid), 180 new agencies (complete with government paid staff), plus the additional burden of the previously uninsured, the new requirements, etc.

If there are fewer people in the private sector to pay the required workers and taxes, WHAT THE F ARE YOU ALL THINKING????? Try and use the logical parts of your brain for a change, instead of the emotional parts.

[æonpax]

Ok.
All of you advocating Universal Healthcare, Obamacare, or an eventual single payer system need a reality check.

1. 1a) Obamacare (supposedly) adds 30,000,000 currently uninsured people to the roles, 1b) But it requires many additional things to be covered for the existing as well as the new patients.

2. 2) Obamacare CUTS, yes, I said cuts, $500,000,000,000 from Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements to doctors and hospitals.

3. 3a) Who do you think pays for the additional requirements, additional enrollees, and reduced reimbursements?
Answer = taxpayers.
3b) However, considering employment rolls in the private sector have shrunk and there are millions of fewer TAXPAYERS to support the system, what will happen?
3c) Answer = collapse of Obamacare, Medicare, and any single payer system, just like is happening all over Europe.

4a) Government workers are paid from our taxes. 4b) Obamacare requires 16,000 new IRS agents (government paid), 180 new agencies (complete with government paid staff), plus the additional burden of the previously uninsured, the new requirements, etc.

5a) If there are fewer people in the private sector to pay the required workers and taxes, WHAT THE F ARE YOU ALL THINKING????? 5b) Try and use the logical parts of your brain for a change, instead of the emotional parts.

1a) Actually, it’s over 50 million - http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2...Ins2011/ib.pdf - before Obamacare and without health care reform.
1b) Such as? Please cite.

2) Please cite source. I found nothing in the law or any government or academic documentation even remotely stating or implying this.

3a) Who do you think ends up paying the cost for the uninsured right now? Ultimately, the taxpayers. - http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/...l-spending.pdf
3b) You are asking for a conclusion based on hearsay and unsupported opinion.
3c) Your opinion…Do you care to support that with some facts.? As for Europe and their health care situation, I’d prefer the Europeans in our bisexual community answer that.

4a) Yes they are and that includes the US Military and all our useless politicians.
4b) I don’t think so. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...00_new_ag.html

5a) Unlike my friends who embrace the selfish, me-first ideology of ultraconservatism, I have not, nor will ever, abandon the basic HUMAN virtues of charity, compassion, mercy, kindness, forbearance and benevolence just to save a few dollars. I would sooner pay more for taxes than allow the corporations to continue this immoral rape of a persons health and the pain and suffering it causes.
5b) Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." - Luke 10:37

[elian]

The bottom line is that a lot of Americans were promised by government, union and private industry that they would be "taken care of" with pensions if they "just worked hard" and paid into the system. If the government and private industry would've kept their hands out of the pension jar then the system would've been doing fine - but no - they had to BORROW against the pensions and run the economy into the ground - talk about the height of stupidity. Now the government and companies are balking at the cost of having to provide healthcare for a mass of baby boomers. Everybody is greedy, everybody's got their hands out for a payment - the workers, the government, the company, the unions, big healthcare providers, medical suppliers (it's all at "no cost to you" just dial our toll free number!!) and the insurance company - the only problem is nobody has THAT amount of money set aside for it - so they all just point fingers. A few of the companies have decided the best way to deal with it is to go casters up, declare bankruptcy, discharge the debt and then rehire all new employees with very little benefits..

So we tried the "private" way and it is failed miserably.. It's time for something different. I don't think "profit" should drive the quality of care. It would be hard for me to think that an actuary calculates the probability of my spouse living and then decides whether or not she (or he) is worth spending the money so that upper management and the shareholders can get a bonus that year but I guess that's the way the free market economy works. But more than anything whatever we do I don't want to be "retired" and still having to work at a company until I'm 80 years old JUST to be able to afford the prescriptions I need to stay alive,.

There is a reason I keep saying "Forgiveness is so important" - a lot of mistakes have been made.

Don't get me wrong, I kind of like the free market but there are SOME things in life it shouldn't apply to.. When you treat human beings like just another market commodity strange things happen - riots, suicide, etc. Then we all go around with a dumbfounded look on our faces and say "what happened? I remember when the world used to be simple/moral." .. as if we cannot understand what is happening.

Of course you are all right - something has to give..

We need to build a) a more compassionate society that is less focused on ego/I b) "strong", educated citizens that understand the value of respect and worth for themselves and others as a part of the wider world.

[elian]

An interesting question ensues, I wonder how many pensions were paid out of revenue from the sale of illegal drugs? I mean that would be ultimate expression of the "free" market right? To take the money from those with an addiction.. This armchair conspiracy stuff is fun..

Of course now that I think about it, doesn't make a lot of sense, you'd want to maximize profit as much as possible for such a high risk.

Did I mention that I have only the most venomous hate for people who profit off the misery of others?

[DuckiesDarling]

Problem here Fran is most Americans are mis or under informed about The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) or Obamacare. They get their information from biased sources (political pundits, faux news…actually any corporate news source) which is a shame. I do understand the bill itself is about a 1,000 pages and I daresay most Americans don’t have an attention span long enough to sit through a brainless TV sitcom much less any reasonable explanation of PPACA.

Here’s a good explanation and discussion on the PPACA from a news site I belong to, Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/tb/vbkfm

Also, here is a point by point outline and explination (same site) - http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikei..._pointbypoint/

I have hundreds of reasons why I think the “Single payer” system is the best way to go and about equal amount of reasons why only complete idiot would trust our present, “for-profit” corporate system….leastways, without government oversight.

Take the need for this law; The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...tive_Labor_Act One of the first things the corporates did when they got their filthy hands into the hospital system was to turn away people who could not pay. It’s called “patient dumping.” Mind you, these are emergencies but hey…profit are more important than people.

Now speaking of the corporates, they do NOT act in our best interest. Check this out; GlaxoSmithKline to pay $3 billion for health fraud - http://www.jsonline.com/news/usandwo...161127155.html This is just the tip of the the scam health care iceberg.

Moving right along, I keep hearing this “we have the best medical system in the world”. That’s debatable. We do have the most costly - http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wo...93-conclusion/ but definitely NOT quality. The New England Journal Of Medicine ranks the US 37 in overall health care performance, - http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0910064

Fran, if you can read only one thing, read this; 50 U.S. Health Care Statistics That Will Absolutely Astonish [Make] You [Puke]. - http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...y-astonish-you

One thing for sure, this issue is kicking up a lot of debate but little intelligent discussion.

Well the only freaking website that is needed regarding this law is the one about the law. WWW.HEALTHCARE.GOV a full on explanation of what is expected to happen at every stage of the way.

[DuckiesDarling]

The bottom line is that a lot of Americans were promised by government, union and private industry that they would be "taken care of" with pensions if they "just worked hard" and paid into the system. If the government and private industry would've kept their hands out of the pension jar then the system would've been doing fine - but no - they had to BORROW against the pensions and run the economy into the ground - talk about the height of stupidity. Now the government and companies are balking at the cost of having to provide healthcare for a mass of baby boomers. Everybody is greedy, everybody's got their hands out for a payment - the workers, the government, the company, the unions, big healthcare providers, medical suppliers (it's all at "no cost to you" just dial our toll free number!!) and the insurance company - the only problem is nobody has THAT amount of money set aside for it - so they all just point fingers. A few of the companies have decided the best way to deal with it is to go casters up, declare bankruptcy, discharge the debt and then rehire all new employees with very little benefits..

So we tried the "private" way and it is failed miserably.. It's time for something different. I don't think "profit" should drive the quality of care. It would be hard for me to think that an actuary calculates the probability of my spouse living and then decides whether or not she (or he) is worth spending the money so that upper management and the shareholders can get a bonus that year but I guess that's the way the free market economy works. But more than anything whatever we do I don't want to be "retired" and still having to work at a company until I'm 80 years old JUST to be able to afford the prescriptions I need to stay alive,.

There is a reason I keep saying "Forgiveness is so important" - a lot of mistakes have been made.

Don't get me wrong, I kind of like the free market but there are SOME things in life it shouldn't apply to.. When you treat human beings like just another market commodity strange things happen - riots, suicide, etc. Then we all go around with a dumbfounded look on our faces and say "what happened? I remember when the world used to be simple/moral." .. as if we cannot understand what is happening.

Of course you are all right - something has to give..

We need to build a) a more compassionate society that is less focused on ego/I b) "strong", educated citizens that understand the value of respect and worth for themselves and others as a part of the wider world.

I agree with a lot of what you say here, Elian. What we have isn't working. For many people like me who exist just outside the limits of being covered it will help but only if the state you live in chooses to opt into the program. They don't have to. People claim it will kill jobs, but the jobs are already dead or dying as evidenced by so much high unemployment. We need to do a lot of things here beginning with going back to our roots as a manufacturing country not an importing country. We need to start spending more of our money in our local towns instead of ordering online. In short, we need to get back to being Americans and having our healthcare decisions determined by our discussions with our doctors, not with an insurance company or the government. I've seen NHS in use and I wasn't impressed, as flawed as our system of paying for the treatment is, the way we actually treat people is much better. There is not an easy solution but I for one am getting sick and tired of Europeans crowing about dragging us out of the dark ages. There is a giant reason we dumped your tea, please remember that.

[biguy71]

I suggest everyone just ignore falcondfw. All I have seen him write in a number of threads is right wing BS, most of which is either a distortion of the facts or patently false. He's also insulting to people personally, as well as to their intelligence. That kind of thing isn't even worth replying to.

[æonpax]

Well the only freaking website that is needed regarding this law is the one about the law. WWW.HEALTHCARE.GOV a full on explanation of what is expected to happen at every stage of the way.

You falsely and erroneously assume everyone will understand and accept a "government" standard explanation. I, on the other hand, encourage people to look beyond the handouts any government provides.

The first step in becoming a slave to any ideology is to box yourself in with only ONE explanation or one source

[æonpax]

An interesting question ensues, I wonder how many pensions were paid out of revenue from the sale of illegal drugs? I mean that would be ultimate expression of the "free" market right? To take the money from those with an addiction.. This armchair conspiracy stuff is fun..

Of course now that I think about it, doesn't make a lot of sense, you'd want to maximize profit as much as possible for such a high risk.

Did I mention that I have only the most venomous hate for people who profit off the misery of others?

The Pharmaceutical lobby has an iron grip control of the US government, ergo, the US market and are sucking us dry.

Various studies have found that prescription drug prices are substantially higher in the United States than in other countries. GAO compared U.S. factory prices with those in Canada and found that manufacturers' prices to wholesalers for identical prescription drugs are typically much higher in the United States than in Canada. The price differences are largely attributable to actions taken by Canada's federal and provincial governments to restrain drug prices, not to any differences in manufacturers' costs .

[DuckiesDarling]

You falsely and erroneously assume everyone will understand and accept a "government" standard explanation. I, on the other hand, encourage people to look beyond the handouts any government provides.

The first step in becoming a slave to any ideology is to box yourself in with only ONE explanation or one source

And you falsely assume that people can't sit there and read the ACTUAL LAW for themselves. Have a nice day.

[elian]

I suggest everyone just ignore falcondfw. All I have seen him write in a number of threads is right wing BS, most of which is either a distortion of the facts or patently false. He's also insulting to people personally, as well as to their intelligence. That kind of thing isn't even worth replying to.

People are entitled to their own opinions, even if I disagree I do believe we learn something from the dialogue. I absolutely do believe that this law is flawed, but no law is ever perfect and the lobbyists have such a firm grip on these issues that I am glad that ANY reform law got passed. Of course, reality being what it is I found out for example that my state, PA has "fair care" which you can pay $283/mo for and get health insurance even if you are considered to be "high risk" uninsurable. That seems like a lot of money per month, but at least it is an alternative to "no insurance available".

I will be reading the ACTA to see just what is in there and I would suggest that anyone else who has strong feelings about it do the same. There's no sense in speculating about it using data from third parties when the primary source is available.

[æonpax]

And you falsely assume that people can't sit there and read the ACTUAL LAW for themselves. Have a nice day.

Have you read the nine hundred and seven page PPACA law? I doubt it. Most of it is written in "legal jargon". Here's the law - http://www.ncsl.org/documents/health...nsolidated.pdf - have at it.

..and you falsely assume the government will tell you everything. Try telling that to US Veterans attempting to navigate their benefit system based only on what the government tells them. Pitiful. Same applies to those on Social Security. Most end up going to third parties for help and many have successfully sued the government based on their erroneous information.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add, if your state choose NOT to participate in the PPACA, which some are doing, you must contact your local federal offices for additional information on how to obtain your benefits under the PPACA and guess what...the "official" source you brought up doesn't even mention that.

A wise person knows their limitations.