Discreet or cheat? What is the difference?

[Long Duck Dong]

I have always believed that the marriage vows refer to for better or for worse, in sickness and in health......

now maybe I am a lil confused here, but as I have said in other threads, it appears that the * for worse* part doesn't cover monogamy or lack of sex in the relationship

it does appear to me that marriage is now a case of I love my partner but I have rights that supersede any obligations to my partner where sex is concerned.....

now I am aware that there are people that feel the need to be discreet, by reason of risk of loss of housing, employment etc.... things that are valid concerns, and inside that aspect may be concern that telling their partner may result in the person being *outted * anyway..

cheaters I view as people that are sexually motivated, they will justify their actions by any means possible and at the end of the day, they do not care about others opinions, only that their sexual desires are furfilled....
there is a minority group of cheaters that are not solely sexually motivated, they have ended up in a situation that was not sexually motivated but has become that anyway.......

personally myself, cheating is something that I could not do, its not in my nature, yet I respect the fact that others with their different views of cheating, may regard things like writing erotic stories for others pleasure, to be a form of verbal / written cheating and betrayal.....

there is also the aspect that some people are simply not suited to one on one monogamous relationships / marriage, yet marry anyway..... they often become the people with 3-4 divorces or people that are more prone to cheat in a marriage, not for the sake of sex, but as a way of coping in a marriage that can feel like a prison of sorts

[JP1986UM]

The verbal gymnastics in this thread are quite amusing.

Being out of the closet I take a rather stern view of cheating. I had to face myself and be honest with me long before I was able to disclose to my wonderful spouse. I have a great marriage now, one that far supercedes my prior fake heterosexual one. I have found that honesty made my marriage much stronger.

When a spouse holds out or loses interest, there is still a rule of fidelity. Taking the good with the bad. Can't put that out of context. Sex is not a given, its a privilege. There should be reasonable expectations and if the spouse cannot meet them, then a voidance of the marriage is in order and you can go about your merry way fucking whomever and whenever you want. Unless that spouse consents to that behavior, which does affect her or him, then sorry, there is no hall pass for cheating in a marriage unless the spouse explicitly consents to said behavior.

That said, even my own open marriage situation comes with rules and regulations. No Craigslist hookups, no quickies in bookstores, no random this or that....that's what we agreed to and what I must abide by.

[lv69cpl69]

To me, discrete is when you do not want the outside world to know and cheat is when you don't want your s/o to know.

The former is not bad, but the latter is bad. There are plenty of Bi couples, straight couples and mixed orientation couples out there that are discrete, but it does not mean that there is cheating going on. In our case, we both try to meet any of the guys that we are interested in, together. It does not always work out that way (when the wife is tired or ill), so the wife sends me off to do the meet and I return and report to her what my feelings are about the guy.

That is not cheating, but it is discrete.

Like I said, if the s/o does not know and is kept in the dark about anything even happening (like lying about it), then that is definitely cheating.

bingo!

[DC_looking]

It must be wonderful to live in a world where everything is either black or white. I've never encountered so much sanctimonious moralizing outside of a Jerry Falwell broadcast.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I know, right? How dare anyone call a spade a spade.

Pasa

[FalconAngel]

LOL!! Dude, you didn't answer any of my points at all, you just deflected and declared an epic fail.

I did, but you choose to not pay attention and call it "not answering your points"

There is NO EXCUSE FOR CHEATING. What part of that are you incapable of understanding?

Where did I say I support the act of cheating?

In every post that you try to "justify" cheating.

I have seen your posts on this subject in other threads. NOT EVEN ONCE have you ever suggested remaining faithful or being honest with people's spouses.

One has to wonder where your moral compass is pointing; particularly since you are listed in your profile as married.
Does your wife know that you imply to others that cheating is a better option than honesty?
How does she feel about that stance?

Again you twist the words to your liking. I support a person's right to do what they feel is necessary, given their circumstance,.......

Necessary? The only thing that sex is "necessary" for is procreation. Sex is fun and a healthy activity, but it is not necessary for feeling good about one's self. It helps but is not necessary.

.......THEIR CHOICE, get it? I have no arguement for cheating. I agrue for freedom of choice.

Aaaah, the "freedom of choice" argument.

What about the promises made to your spouse when you married her? You took those vows together.
Did you not understand them? You CHOSE to take those vows, as did every other married person here, and all of the implications therein.
You, for all intents and purposes, "signed a document", before whatever deity that you believe in, that you would abide by those vows. SO when you violate those vows, what does that make you?

Did you not know that your word should be enough in a relationship and you actions should comply with that word?
Are you even remotely aware of the damage that is done when cheating enters the picture?
If you are aware, then, in order to support your "freedom to choose to cheat" agenda, why do you not explain the pitfalls of cheating?
Do you think that cheaters don't get caught? Well, they do get caught; all of the time. And it often does irreparable damage to a relationship.
Your "freedom of choice" did not, apparently take that into consideration, now. Did it?

You "freedom of choice" COMPLETELY IGNORES THE REPERCUSSIONS OF YOUR ACTIONS.
Your post on another, new, thread clearly shows that you do not consider the ramifications of cheating, or did you expect the rest of us to come to your intellectual rescue when you failed to mention those ramifications?

Freedom of choice has the moral mandate to be as informed as possible of all of the options: The good and the bad of whatever one is making a choice on.
Had you posted the bad along with the rest of your drivel, you would have been informing others of the truth of that choice.

You chose to not do that, presuming that the other person would already know that. You forget that people, being people, do not always think about the bad that can happen.

If you truly did not support cheating, in and of itself, then you would have taken the step necessary to remind people of the ramifications, both long and short term, of those actions.

As my ex found out, the lies fall apart on you pretty quickly and that breeds suspicion, which destroys a marriage.

And no, I'm not judging your relationship, as I'm in a very similar situation. Been with my wife for 23 years now and with my male half for just over a year now.

Actually, your implication was that you did. Neither of us cheat. We have a very clear set of rules in that aspect and neither of us needs to lie about what we do. My wife knew that I was Bi long before we got married (11years together, 9 years married and still going strong) and we worked things out long before we said our vows.

Now the big question:

Does your wife know about your male lover?

If she does, then does she know that he's your lover or does she think that you are actually straight and he's just a "drinking buddy" or some other such thing?

If she does not, then it will without question, be that un-disarmable bomb that blows up in your face. Maybe not today; maybe not this week, but it will blow up on you and you will be an even worse bad guy for the deception.

I've mentioned it all over the place here. The point is that WE as people in open relationships are judged by main stream society every day, like it or not. But you are right on one point, I'm not in a position to judge others, so I don't. You, on the other hand, do at every chance you get. See the difference?

Now you are switching to the mainstream society argument. That has to do with being discrete and does nothing to address the cheating issue.

We have already addressed "discretion". so this is just an attempt to sidetrack the argument away from your support of the cheating issue.

I know what right and wrong are. Not so sure about you, though, at this point.

Do we both agree that Lying to your spouse about your relationship (in and outside of marriage) and anything that can directly affect it is wrong (not including surprise gifts and good things)?

Do we both agree that cheating is wrong?

Do we both agree that to cheat we have to eventually lie to continue doing so?

If the answers to those questions are all yes, then we are on the same page. But I do not believe that you can support your argument for the "choice" to break your marriage vows and cheat, unless you answer "no" to those questions.

You will, likely not answer them at all, "choosing" to ignore them, instead.

So you don't like my definition of justifiable because we aren't talking about murder? Not talking about the law you say? Well what is the #1 reason people get divorced (another legal action)?

Cheating (legal term is infidelity), usually, at least here in the US.

Infidelity (or, if you like, cheating). And a legal defense (justification) to infidelity is frigidity.

Which statute would that be in?

And, since you are in Canada (according to your profile) I cannot comment on Canadian law without seeing the statute, but here in the US, cheating for any "reason" is justifiable grounds for divorce and in many states, the cheater gets slammed hard by the courts.

Frigidity is also weak, but justifiable, grounds for a divorce (don't recall the legal term, off hand right now) in which things come out a bit more evenly.

When one person in a marriage rejects all sexual advances from their spouse for an extended period of time, or is declared frigid (yes, a medical term) by a medical professional, then that person has no right to petition for divorce on the grounds on infidelity........

Again, Canadian law, not US law. If you are going to discuss how the law pertains to this issue, then compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

Canadian divorce law does not apply outside of Canada, so legally, that argument is a moot point, as it may not be applied to anyone outside of Canada.

But if you insist on going there, then I am willing to do so.

But more importantly, if, as you say, frigidity is grounds for divorce in Canada, then why not just do that?
It has to be a lot easier then getting had for cheating which, by your own words, is also grounds for divorce. And divorce on the grounds of a lack of sexual interest by your partner has to be less messy than getting caught cheating.


[/QUOTE]if they catch their spouse cheating. The act of marriage is contract between the two implying a sexual relationship, and if one breaks that contract the agreement is considered voidable (divorce or annulment). That, my good friend ,is called justification. Very appropriate in this context.[/QUOTE]

Again, only in Canada. Cheating is considered grounds for a divorce in the US, but Frigidity is not; HOWEVER, if a spouse refuses to have consensual sex with their partner that CAN be grounds for an annulment, if there were no children produced in the marriage. Even in the US.

It still does not justify cheating; Annulment or divorce, yes, but not cheating.

So my position isn't a fail. Cheating is happening all over the place, even on this site.

And that makes it right?

To quote my parents: "if all of your friends decided to jump into Lake Michigan in the middle of winter, does that mean that you have to?

You are right though. The other post wasn't an epic fail.......THAT ARGUMENT was the real epic fail.
The very immature "but everyone else is doing it" argument.

Just peruse the public profiles and see all the requests for "discretion". You and I are in the minority.

I know, from more than a few threads like this, that I am not in the minority. I think about how my advice affects those that I give it to. So I always discourage cheating because ending a disfunctional relationship is better than staying in it and getting caught in the lies of cheating. I recommend other, less risky options than cheating.

Starting with honesty. If you cannot be honest with your spouse, then who can you be honest with?


[/QUOTE]We are lucky and should be very thankful. I am, and want to help others find their way and hopefully come out to their spouses honestly, but within their own time frame. I don't cast stones at them for not being just like me.[/QUOTE]

I am very thankful, but instead of recommending the riskiest choice, I suggest other options that can either save the marriage or end it with the least long term pain possible.

You do not even suggest that as an option.

Maybe you have never been cheated on, but many people, myself included, have. And yes, that has changed our views of this issue. We have been through it and DO NOT recommend it to anyone. It destroys trust, not just between the partners involved, but future involvements as well
Many of us have been in that "battlefield" and do not want others to go there, while you have sat back and encouraged others to do so, telling them why they should without even one single reason why they should not.
That is not giving them a choice.....it is giving them an uninformed choice and is not very honest.

[mikey3000]

Falcon, the length and passion of your post impressed me. Obviously I've hit a very tender nerve for you, so I'm sorry that you were obviously so hurt in the past. Now I understand your position totally.

Let me clarify one thing though. I am out to my wife, she actually picked my b/f for me, met him and talks with him all the time. They have a great respect for each other. I thought you would have picked up on that when I mentioned open relationships, but maybe I wasn't clear enough. My bad.

So now back to you, cause really, it's all about you, isn't it. Sure, no sex necessary except for procreation. There are absolutely no other health benefits, either physical, mental or emotional. None at all. ( http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationshi...enefits-of-sex ) . My mistake. But actually don't need to have sex to procreate anymore either ( http://www.emedicinehealth.com/in_vi...article_em.htm) so really there is no biological need for sex at all right? Right. Again, my bad. Good thing you don't have to look outside your marriage for sex, eh?

And there absolutely is no excuse for having extramarital sex without your spouses prior consent, ever. Doesn't matter if your spouse denies you sex and you still want it, or even if they become medically incapable of having sex, best to divorce them and move on (http://www.dadsnow.org/studies/heritage1.htm). Who cares if you still love them. It's so wrong. Divorce them. Isn't that what you believe? "...For however long it lasts", right? The sexually active person does not have any rights as a human being anymore. I have to suggest that idea to my 42 y/o friend whose wife suffered a massive stroke several years ago and can't even feed herself, let alone give consent to play. Yes, leave her.

I didn't have to suggest any negative aspects of infidelity, since he's an adult, I assume he is well aware of them. Besides I knew you would write volumes on it, and I was right.

So, in conclusion, I give in. You are right, right, right. Because of your past experience,your morals fit everyone else and no one has the right to think for themselves, to choose their own situation cause you were once cheated on and know better than every one else. You are judge and jury for every person on the planet. So sorry. I was wrong, wrong wrong. Judge all you want. You are always right.

End of very tiring and annoying discussion.

And for the record, I have received several PMs from others sighting your sanctimonious attitude, and I must agree, it is so fucking annoying, so dude claim your victory.

[FalconAngel]

Falcon, the length and passion of your post impressed me. Obviously I've hit a very tender nerve for you, so I'm sorry that you were obviously so hurt in the past. Now I understand your position totally.

Well, I am not the only one to go through it and that should take precedence when recommending things like that. Look at it from the other side and ask yourself if you would want to be the victim of that kind of deception. Those are repercussions.

Let me clarify one thing though. I am out to my wife, she actually picked my b/f for me, met him and talks with him all the time.

And that is good. What I find confusing is why you would suggest what you have when that is not the relationship that you have?

They have a great respect for each other. I thought you would have picked up on that when I mentioned open relationships, but maybe I wasn't clear enough. My bad.

But an open relationship has no secrets. They are honest about the things going on with both of them. That is not cheating.

So now back to you, cause really, it's all about you, isn't it.

No, but it is all about having an honest relationship. Something that I am very passionate about.

Sure, no sex necessary except for procreation. There are absolutely no other health benefits, either physical, mental or emotional. None at all. ( http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationshi...enefits-of-sex ) . My mistake. But actually don't need to have sex to procreate anymore either ( http://www.emedicinehealth.com/in_vi...article_em.htm) so really there is no biological need for sex at all right? Right. Again, my bad. Good thing you don't have to look outside your marriage for sex, eh?

Health benefits is a straw man argument. I have never argued against ththe health benefits of sex. But you said "necessary", which does not apply to what you are saying about the health benefits or about the "necessity" to cheat. the health benefits, while good are still not a necessity.
There is a difference between necessity and just being a good alternative for additional health benefits. Perhaps some study into the difference is in order for you.

And, actually, it's a good thing that you don't know how to make a point that can stick. This would be a lot tougher to do if you were a decent debator.

And there absolutely is no excuse for having extramarital sex without your spouses prior consent, ever. Doesn't matter if your spouse denies you sex and you still want it, or even if they become medically incapable of having sex, best to divorce them and move on (http://www.dadsnow.org/studies/heritage1.htm). Who cares if you still love them. It's so wrong. Divorce them. Isn't that what you believe? "...For however long it lasts", right? The sexually active person does not have any rights as a human being anymore. I have to suggest that idea to my 42 y/o friend whose wife suffered a massive stroke several years ago and can't even feed herself, let alone give consent to play. Yes, leave her.

And cheating on them is less selfish, how, exactly?

I didn't have to suggest any negative aspects of infidelity, since he's an adult, I assume he is well aware of them. Besides I knew you would write volumes on it, and I was right.

But you have underestimated the power of human stupidity.

Most people, when it comes to reasons that they want something (if they want it badly enough), take the real time and effort to consider what will happen as a repercussion of doing something when they feel that it does not affect others. People need reminding because of the simple fact that, even adults, need to be jogged into thinking before acting.

So you presume that everyone thinks about those repercussions of cheating when, in fact, most guys that cheat do not think about the repercussions of cheating.

So, in conclusion, I give in.

And you should. You are not a good debator.

You are right, right, right. Because of your past experience,your morals fit everyone else and no one has the right to think for themselves, to choose their own situation cause you were once cheated on and know better than every one else.

Well, My morals fit in with honest people. I expect people to choose what is right and what will not do harm to their partners. If someone wants to cheat after learning ALL of the facts and pitfalls of cheating, then I have done what I can to inform them of the pitfalls and repercussions of their actions.
After all of that, if they choose to cheat, knowing all of that, the responsibility is theirs. I have done what I can to help prevent them from ruining 2 lives (maybe more, if they have kids to consider in the family).

You are judge and jury for every person on the planet. So sorry. I was wrong, wrong wrong. Judge all you want. You are always right.

Yes, I do judge people based on both their words and actions. Your words said one thing and you claim that your actions are different. But is it true or, like cheaters, are you lying about that.

The words of an honest man match his actions and claims. You have too many inconsistencies in that area.

End of very tiring and annoying discussion.

Of course it's tiring it is hard work to support an opinion that is both dishonest and known to be morally wrong.

And for the record, I have received several PMs from others sighting your sanctimonious attitude, and I must agree, it is so fucking annoying, so dude claim your victory.

And I know exactly which 3 or 4 people that they are. They are the same ones that have already done what you have just failed to do......defend an indefensible position. One in particular has been called out on his inconsistencies repeatedly by me and others.

You should choose your friends a bit more wisely......just a suggestion, since most people are often judged by the company that they keep.

[tenni]

Falcon
Judge not least you be judged.

You seem to be a sad wounded soul who is very intolerantly judgmental of those that do not conform to your rigid beliefs and moral perspective. Your lack of tolerance and rationalizations puts you in the same extremist radical camp as those who would stone and kill you for your evil lifestyle if they could get away with it. Do not ever think that there are not other rigid moralists who condemn you as you condemn others. They have it all figured out too.

[Long Duck Dong]

The sexually active person does not have any rights as a human being anymore. I have to suggest that idea to my 42 y/o friend whose wife suffered a massive stroke several years ago and can't even feed herself, let alone give consent to play. Yes, leave her.

that rises a interesting point, mikey.... and thats a grey area in my eyes.... the person is not able to consent to sex or to extra marital playing.....
so communication is not really a option there.....

its one of the very few areas that I do allow for a weakening of my opinions about cheating as its not a situation that can be dealt with on a equal terms level between two people and that is a key point of a lot of my stance on cheating.....

I endorse the right to make a informed choice by both partners, and in the case you share, thats not a option...... so in that case, I would put aside my judgment of cheaters and cheating, and say, may they both be at peace with whatever happens.... as its possible the wife may never know or if told, even understand that the husband has taken a lover for sexual, emotional etc support.....

yes, I concede that its a clear grey area....

btw, sorry for not PM'ing you about falcon..... I just hate PM'ing people...... besides, the * holy crusader * appears to be gaining his own anti fan club anyway

[mikey3000]

Thanks Duckie

My whole point in that is certain situations, there are grey areas. As for my friend, yes his family and his wife's family know he has a special friend, and we all support him. He is a wonderful husband and will take care of his wife for as long as he can, he loves her very much. He is Superman.

Abd I knew I was dealing with someone who is very irrational as soon as he said, "the health benefits, while good are still not a necessity."

But all he can do is try to attack my debating skills? LOL!!! There is no rational debating with an illogical person. I just let him spew and others will judge him too, just like he has the need to judge other adults. And it worked.

Mission accomplished.

[DC_looking]

Good lord. What a bunch of long winded blowhards. Enamored with the keen geometric precision of their logic. Go jump in lake Michigan mand end this tedious thread.

[jamieknyc]

What puzzles me about this thread is why everyone seems to think that you are destroying your SO's life by cheating (an arguemtn that does have some basis), but that the same people say "if he/she won't accept you having bisexual experiences, divorce them.' Aren't you f***ing up someone life a lot more by doing that? And why do none of the moralists on here seem to think that it is a bad thing to screw up someone's life by leaving them?

[FalconAngel]

What puzzles me about this thread is why everyone seems to think that you are destroying your SO's life by cheating (an arguemtn that does have some basis), but that the same people say "if he/she won't accept you having bisexual experiences, divorce them.' Aren't you f***ing up someone life a lot more by doing that? And why do none of the moralists on here seem to think that it is a bad thing to screw up someone's life by leaving them?

That is a gray area, Jamie, but the whole thing revolves around honesty. Honesty is the key. If the basis of your relationship with your significant other is based on sex, then why even get married in the first place?

Also important is what would any of us feel if we were being cheated on?

Put yourself in your partner's shoes before you decide to cheat. Cheating is the deepest act of dishonesty and betrayal that anyone could do to their s/o.
it leaves much longer lasting scars than just simply getting divorced.

Cheating has some extremely negative repercussions, particularly against the cheater, both in court, when the cheater's spouse divorces them as well as in the community (if the community is small enough).

If I could not be honest with my spouse about our relationship, then I know that there is a problem with our relationship.

What does not help is why some people who claim that they do not cheat and claim to have never been cheated on, would even recommend cheating in the first place.

It does make one wonder what they are really doing.

And the act of cheating is 100% selfish. If one is selfish, they have a possession, not a relationship. People are not possessions. And a functional relationship is not selfish. It is honest and non-judgemental between all parties involved.

As far as leaving someone, it screws up their life a lot less than cheating on them will. Leaving is not as monumental a betrayal as cheating is. Because leaving them releases them to find the relationship that they want to have; it does not keep them trapped in a destructive relationship that is not working in the first place.

[Pasadenacpl2]

What puzzles me about this thread is why everyone seems to think that you are destroying your SO's life by cheating (an arguemtn that does have some basis), but that the same people say "if he/she won't accept you having bisexual experiences, divorce them.' Aren't you f***ing up someone life a lot more by doing that? And why do none of the moralists on here seem to think that it is a bad thing to screw up someone's life by leaving them?

The honorable thing to do is to tell them, and then allow them the choice. To not allow them the choice is where the actual problem is. They have a right to choose not to be married to some one who is sleeping around, let alone sleeping with same sex partners.

I agree, just up and divorcing them seems worse than cheating. But not being honest is the actual problem. They have the right to know, and to choose. When you take away that right, that is when you've actually caused harm.

Pasa

[FalconAngel]

Thanks Duckie

My whole point in that is certain situations, there are grey areas. As for my friend, yes his family and his wife's family know he has a special friend, and we all support him. He is a wonderful husband and will take care of his wife for as long as he can, he loves her very much. He is Superman.

Be careful who you choose as friends. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, but Duck will continue to support you as long as you continue to kiss his ass.

And if this is your best effort to justify doing what is wrong, then I have already proven that your skills are lacking, as is your story and excuses.

Abd I knew I was dealing with someone who is very irrational as soon as he said, "the health benefits, while good are still not a necessity."

Irrational people fall back on what you have done in this post; confuse need with option, not understand that you nation's laws only apply in your nation, make straw man arguments and all of the other things that you use as "excuses", rather than giving realistic reasons that are not selfish and self-centered.

Have you looked up the difference between necessary and beneficial yet?

The two words are not interchangeable.

But all he can do is try to attack my debating skills? LOL!!!

Actually, if you actually read the posts, I called you out on your debating skills after I had proven your points to be wrong and selfish.

You cannot make a point if you cannot defend it properly. And you have failed miserably at defending your selfish and self-serving irresponsible points.

So the whole point of that little diatribe is to embarrass yourself. Good job, by the way.

Every "excuse" that you have come up with to do what you claim that you do not do is lame and weak. And there is a difference between an excuse to do what you know to be wrong and a legitimate reason to do it.

Perhaps you just don't know the difference between an excuse and a reason. Those two words are only periferaly related and almost never interchangeable.

One has to really wonder why you speak out so strongly in support of something that you claim that you do not do it, yourself? If you believe in it so strongly, and you are not lying about not doing it yourself, then why support it at all?

I am not the only one to catch that inconsistency in your argument. What gives you the authority to do something that you, yourself are claiming that you do not do and have implied that you haven't either done or been a victim of:
Unless you, in fact do it and are back-peddaling to cover your tracks. Duck has taught you well, but as you are discovering, the lies can only hold up so long before you get called on them.

There is no rational debating with an illogical person. I just let him spew and others will judge him too, just like he has the need to judge other adults. And it worked.

Mission accomplished.

Actually, the irrational one has been you. Since you were not paying attention to your "spew", as you call it, let us address that.

You have come up with excuses for cheating (not reasons), something that you have claimed that you do not do.

Why? To give "choices"? That is the piss poorest excuse.

I am fairly certain that people can figure out that "choice" (as you put it), without your half-thought help.

Particularly when your "advice" does not include the potential pitfalls. Pitfalls that they may not consider. You do not know these people and, no offense to everyone, but not everyone considers those options when they consider that most abhorrent "choice" of cheating. Maybe they have never considered it at all before.
You do not know. Particularly when they are first timers to this site or their bisexuality. New Bisexuals come here for answers not solutions that create more problems than they solve.

What they need to be reminded of, for reasons given in earlier posts, that there are other, less selfish options and that there are long term negative repercussions when they follow your poorly thought out "advice".

Advice that you, yourself, claim to not even follow.

Why do you not believe in your own advice enough to follow it yourself?

Native Americans have a saying; "Walk your talk." I walk my talk and you do not. It is as simple as that.

If you don't practice what you preach, then what gives you the appropriate level of authority to recommend it to others?

what would that authority be? Do as I say, not as I do? Look up the word "Hypocrite" when you get that new dictionary and take a good long look at yourself.

If you consider me to be irrational for that, then perhaps you need a better dictionary.

[FalconAngel]

The honorable thing to do is to tell them, and then allow them the choice. To not allow them the choice is where the actual problem is. They have a right to choose not to be married to some one who is sleeping around, let alone sleeping with same sex partners.

I agree, just up and divorcing them seems worse than cheating. But not being honest is the actual problem. They have the right to know, and to choose. When you take away that right, that is when you've actually caused harm.

Pasa

Better said than I, Pasa.

[mikey3000]

Good lord. What a bunch of long winded blowhards. Enamored with the keen geometric precision of their logic. Go jump in lake Michigan mand end this tedious thread.

I'm trying, man, he just won't shut the fuck up. I think he's broken.

[crazy_cat_lady]

seeing this thread from a thrid person point of view really shows how useles it is to debate on these forums. why? because Falcon, Mikey could give a million actual reasons to justify cheating and but you'd say they were "excuses" because it is your personal oppinion. I agree with some of your points don't get me wrong, but I also agree with some of his. Not everyone is you Falcon....not everyone feels that being cheated on is such a horrable life shattering thing, some people can get over it quicker than others. Otherwise how would a marrage survive such a thing?

And you continually think of it from the victims point of view falcon...never the one faced with the choice.

For example my grandmother was married for 20 or 30 years when my grandfather was diagnosed with diabetes and it gave him ED and back the viagra wasn't nearlly as common as today. She was married to him for 20 more years until he died and never cheated on him.

Now you may say Good for her, way to stay faithful! But think of it from her end of the deal. she was in the prime of her life and sex was completely cut off. could you really deal with a sexless marrage for that long, with only your hand to be with? to cuddle up to and be intimate with? could you be reduced to only quick pecks every now and then? and sleeping on opposite sides of the bed?

Could your marrage really stand when one of the support collums has been taken away? I hate people who consider sex just a fun perk that goes along with the relationship. I feel their just as bad as the people who think sex has no meaning and are willing to date someone for just the sex.

Sex is VERY important to a relationship! maybe not "nessacery" as you put it, like my grandmother situation, but still very important.

the whole reason cheating hurts so bad is the exact reason sex is so important. sex creates intimacey which is one of the foundations of love, and to betray that by cheating yes is a horrable thing, but to for a person to live in a closeness, sexless, stale relationship, can be even worse.

[Long Duck Dong]

Be careful who you choose as friends. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, but Duck will continue to support you as long as you continue to kiss his ass.

where am I supporting mikey.... I am actually talking about his friend, and the ethics of that situation as opposed to my stance on cheating..... and the differences.....

if your head was not stuck up your own ass, you would have seen that

[rissababynta]

where am I supporting mikey.... I am actually talking about his friend, and the ethics of that situation as opposed to my stance on cheating..... and the differences.....

if your head was not stuck up your own ass, you would have seen that

Yeah that sort of confused me too...

[TwylaTwobits]

Yeah that sort of confused me too...

me three but then Falcon oh so publicly declared he was putting Duckie on ignore so why would he be saying anything about posts he can't see?

[Pasadenacpl2]

the whole reason cheating hurts so bad is the exact reason sex is so important. sex creates intimacey which is one of the foundations of love, and to betray that by cheating yes is a horrable thing, but to for a person to live in a closeness, sexless, stale relationship, can be even worse.

Go ahead and cheat, then. But give your spouse the courtesy of telling them so they can make an informed decision. It is the right thing to do.

I will never say that sex out of the marriage bed is a bad thing. I will say, however, that sex out of the marriage bed without allowing your spouse the opportunity to decide if they can live with you cheating or not is where the actual betrayal is.

If my spouse had ED, I'd tell them that I was going to go elsewhere to meet my physical intimacy needs. If they wish to stay with me, fantastic. If they want to divorce me, that's their choice. But at least they have the choice.

Pasa

[tenni]

Well, now we are getting to a more clear and important discussion about this situation where one partner, usually a woman, withholds sex from the other partner or can not physically perform sexually. Legally, if one spouse withholds sex what are the consequences for the other spouse? Frequently, in a divorce situation that spouse who withholds sex to the point of the other spouse seeking sex outside the relation wins part of the other spouses share. Children in such marriages are often used as a weapon against the spouse who "cheated" and visitation becomes a nightmare. There are so many injustices that may lead a person not to disclose and when desire/need for same sex is added, there is such resistance to same sex activity that most in society support the partner who is hetero and shows little sympathy for the bisexual.

If the spouse does not acknowledge and accept a need for same sex sexual activity, that spouse may react by withholding sex or ask for a divorce. I can not understand why bisexuals do not begin to support other bisexuals in such situations? Perhaps bisexuals should fight to alter society's understanding and acceptance of bisexual needs? Those that do not acknowledge such needs but perceive them as desire are rigid. There is no coming to agreement with such draconian thinkers. Let's just agree to disagree and not turn this thread into an argument of needs versus desires(happened in the past)..move on.

[littlerayofsunshine]

Lordy Lordy, This stuff again.... It has actually gone off topic to the OP. But none the matter.

Discreet or cheat, what is the difference?

This day and age they have been entangled to mean "Don't let my secret out, but also begs for someone trusting and secretive.

They have become synonymous terms in forums in personal ads all over the web. Discreet is a ribbon and bowed word used to reflect " I'm married or attached and don't want them to find out."


Now mind you, if you use the concrete definitions, they mean nothing alike.

The word cheating causes shame and probably goes against someone's idea of themselves which is why some choose to use Discreet over saying "I'm a married/attached male/female seeking to cheat on my spouse/sig-other for (Enter reason here).

Now, outside of all that, I have always found it curious that those who do cheat, seek trust and disclosure. Same as with those who are knowing participants in the cheating.
That's sort of like Berney Madoff going "yeah I know I did that thing with all those people's money, those who had faith I was doing the right thing and helping them build their lives. But you can trust me with yours.. Honest ".

Now I don't think cheating is always the wrong thing to do, but I also don't think that if it happened that it would END all relationships, if the other found out about it.. And honestly I think there is a misogynist tone towards female spouses that are left in the dark. Women have been dealing with spouses doing such since biblical days and Most tend to try and stay and work out the issues. Honestly, If your spouse loved you and felt you were worthy of love and Feels that your worth is greater than your flaws, He/she would stay and work it out.

A spouse that can no longer perform to your desired sexual needs, may in themselves feel they no longer provide for you and have their own guilt. I don't think cheating should be the first avenue taken, there are doctors to be seen, counselors that could assist. You have to take the journey before you see cheating as your only option..

Now why am I against cheating in many ways... Well..I became a Dominatrix since I stopped coming to this site. And as part of my training, one of the first things I learned was "What is the difference between a sub and a slave?" The difference is a sub has choice and a slave has none. When there is some sig-other left in the dark, with no choice, then they are forced into slavery. A prisoner in a cell with no visible bars. Now this is my own opinion I have developed. And one of the basis of a D/s relationship is trust and openness. Which is built and nurtured.

Now another reason is, There are those who leave their marriage for the one's that they cheat with. Those relationships rarely survive and usually end the same way they began. And when children are involved it can get confusing and hurtful for the children. Not knowing who's going to potentially be their next step mom/dad.

Maybe its the empathy I have for others that also make me against it. When normal human behavior, especially for a woman is "What did I do wrong, What could I have done differently, I am too fat, too ugly, too unworthy".. Yep the blame game. When a world is ultimately flipped upside down, and what was once safe no longer is, you look inward and break yourself down. Even though its not really all your fault.. Much like a rape victim.

A cheating spouse normally won't ever say " Its not you, its me!" It's most likely "You didn't do this for me, You weren't right for me, I love you, but I am not 'in love' with you anymore."

Most cheaters see the detriment to themselves and the facade they wish to maintain. Then the actual destruction of someone else's spirit. "If my spouse finds out he/she will take me to the cleaners, get half my house and take my kids away". But for the spouse that has been cheated on, they lose the life they worked to build, the years they put in.. Not only losing faith in whom they loved, but faith in any future love prospects and in themselves and in their ability to judge others.

I know I will be attacked by the "Right Fighters". And that's fine. But I have written in the past of how sometimes cheating is right thing to do. As in with the story of my Aunt that died of brain cancer, who months before she died had regressed to that of a 2-3 year old child. My Uncle found comfort in another woman's arms, and I find that was best to do, considering even though legally he still had "marriage rights" with my aunt, having sex with her would have been rape and almost like child rape.

Now, I saw in previous posts about grounds for divorce.. The one that is "Due to not having any sexual relations".. Is called Alienation of Affection. The marriage is no longer being continually consummated.


I agree that sex is a biological need, but one we can control.. similar to that of a diet or exercising. We choose the diet we want or the duration/intensity of the exercise. We as humans develop choice.

Compulsion is something that is not as controllable. Usually due to brain/emotional dysfunction. And in those affected with a compulsion (OCD for example). It doesn't matter what facts or figures that are stated. That person will always rationalize their compulsion to make sense to them.


This will always be a never ending Chicken/egg style argument.

[FalconAngel]

I'm trying, man, he just won't shut the fuck up. I think he's broken.

Actually...broken is not knowing the difference between right and wrong, I.E. defending wrong and attacking right.

That would actually be you.

Check all of your posts to see the proof of that.

Oh yeah, it turns out that you have been (possibly still are, but trying to cover it up) a cheater.

Here is your admittance of that.

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showp...4&postcount=25

Now, we know why you are such a proponent of cheating and it gives us another look into your integrity-free nature.

One would think that you would be smart enough to know better, but you don't.

It is interesting what one finds through a few sources and some research.

It isn't a crime to be wrong, but trying to convince people that wrong is right and not understanding why no one of any integrity supports your position is just stupid.

See, I already know that you post your smart-assed lies and ignorant remarks in the forum because you will get a response.

And I have no tolerance for liars and fools, so yes, I will blast every stupid, amoral ignorant excuse that you come up with for trying to justify doing wrong where right is the better way to go.

If your weak-willed "friends" want to kiss your but and take your side just because they don't like me, I have to wonder just how valid is their support, or your already weak position, when they abandon what they know to be right just to "get back" at someone that they don't like.

That is piss poor support that will turn on you as quickly as they turned to you.

You don't want this to end because it will detract from the tiny little bit of power that you believe that it gives you. You are not a troll, but you sure act like you are not too far from being one.

If you really wanted to respond to the others without a response from me, then you would send a private message.
Now if I am wrong about that, then it just means that you are not bright enough to figure out how to send a private message. But that would be proof that I am right about you in another way, if that were the case.

I have power over you because you know that I am right and you are too weak to admit it, honestly.

If you really want this to end, then you would not be so snarky about me with your responses to others.
You would be man enough to address me directly, but you are not man enough for that, since all of your other attempts were addressed and arguments shot down and you have nothing left but to pursue the identical course that all of your "allies" have done: Your arguments failed, so behaving like a spoiled little child about it is the only choice left to you.

Man up and honestly and sincerely admit the truth. You will be amazed at how cathartic that feels.

But it also requires you to be paying attention and noticing things that others do not, which is why I don't lose when it is a subject that I know and others do not.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Umm...He came clean to his wife, Falcon. That's doing what he should do: admit, and give her the opportunity to either deal with it, or leave.

This shouldn't be a finger-pointing exercise.

Pasa

[FalconAngel]

Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion.

Discrete = not out in the open for all to see. Often applies to alternative lifestyles. Sometimes a betrayal, but not always

Cheat = behind the s/o in such a way as to not let them know what you are doing what you know you should not be doing. A betrayal of your relationship arrangement or marriage vows.

[mikey3000]

I have power over you because you know that I am right and you are too weak to admit it, honestly.

Dude, You're fucking cracked in the head.

Other's realized that I came clean to my wife, why couldn't you? I have threads all over this board on my comming out process in detail. No secrets at all. The guilt from my affair is what prompted me to come out to her and luckily we over came it. It made me a much better person.

If you were smart enough to put two and two together, you'd have figured out that. Maybe that's why I don't condemn and judge others, because I've been there and understand where they're comming from.

Falcon, you have no power over me or anyone else on this board. You don't even have power over your own sensibilities.

I repeat. I think you're broken. No need to pm that.

[TwylaTwobits]

I have power over you because you know that I am right and you are too weak to admit it, honestly.

First let me say I am not saying this to be a bitch, I am just pointing out something that is a universal truth on message board such as these. NO ONE has POWER over ANYONE except Drew and even then he only has the power over the posting ability of that person.

The only thing we can do on this board is either report or ignore that is the only power anyone has.

Now back to the thread that won't end.