One in the Eye for Fran

[darkeyes]

Ok..so you've shut us down.. thats ok.. no skin off my nose.. I have been a member of this site almost since its inception, and occasionally chatted on its predecessor. I've had loads of fun and many terrific barneys with many people in chat and in forums. Now I find myself gagged..and not in a nice way.. So Gaza is a no no now huh? Of course it stirred passions.. war does that sort of thing..

I don't like censorship but that is precisely what we have here. If all we are allowed to get passionate about on .com is shagging, sucking, cream pies, cock size then we do ourselves no favours. It gives a signal to the wider world that we are what they often think of us.. perverts with nothing in our heads but sex with whoever is closest to hand.. well I have a brain in my head..however much sex and my sexuality means to me, that is a personal thing..something I am not ashamed of but I am about far more than sex and sexuality. The world I live in and its inhabitants, and not just human inhabitants either, mean at least as much and on a certain level much much more than my lifestyle. And now I find myself unable to express a view because Drew says so... I have more than once been concerned about the level of censorship on site but in the main these have been relatively unimportant issues at least to me and like a fool I didnt press too hard. This time I find myself unable to let it pass.

I will not be gagged, and will not allow discussion on a matter which whether we like it or not affects us all, and potentially in a very, very important way, be stopped without expressing my disgust in an appallingly high handed action. I know this site is primarily about sex and sexuality.. but are we not more than that? Do we not have other things we care about? Or does what goes on in the wider world not affect us? Are we immune? Well I care, and being stopped from expressing how I feel is censorship.. so much for the free society. It is because I care for freedom of speech and freedom of action in my and everyone elses lives, that I increasingly think I no longer belong here. It has been on my mind for some time, but I love this site and the people on it.. well.. mostly I love it..and most of the people... It is not a move I would make lightly, but I am seriously considering it.

If I decide to go on a matter of principle I go and stay gone... I'll let you talk about your shagging and knob sizes while I spend more time in the real world... I take this personally.. really personally and think Drew's action in shuttin the debate down is worthy of any repressive state...

[csrakate]

Fran,
Please, don't misconstrue Drew's actions as a slight on your rights of free speech. What was most offensive was not the subject matter, nor the passion with which you or anyone else spoke. It was the level to which this thread sunk with the name calling and the insults that were being hurled. Having an intelligent discussion is one thing, but when it becomes so vicious that groups of people are being put down, individuals are being called names and rational thought has been taken over by knee jerk reactions, it has ceased to be productive and simply denigrates the subject for which you so clearly have a great deal of passion for. I can't stop you from feeling the way that you do, but I urge you to think about the realities of how this thread disintegrated instead of feeling that you were being censored. The behavior that took place in this thread wasn't in adherence with the guidelines established for this forum and when such a thing occurs, Drew has every right to put a stop to it.

Kate

[allbimyself]

Fran,

You know me luffs ya, but...

In this case you need to climb down off your cross. You are not being persecuted. You are not being censored. Drew made it quite plain why he locked the thread and do notice that he locked it, he didn't delete it. He never said the topic was taboo, only the way people were behaving. The discussion had, for the most part, degenerated into name calling and other personal attacks and that aspect was accelerating. There's no point in keeping the thread open when that happens.

His actions were not directed at you, but rather the people who couldn't keep the discussion civil.

It isn't like you to play the victim when you aren't, and you aren't in this case.

[**Peg**]

ah!

I had a feeling there was trouble in the thread "Eyeless in Gaza" when someone in chat asked me last night if I had read the thread. Frankly, the title alone turned me in the opposite direction, and so I didn't even read the first posting in it, having just seen the evening news about the fighting in Gaza and the CBC's Fifth Estate Kandahar report on what our Canuck forces are facing every day.

Honey, I agree with allbi and kate and Drew. A lifestyle forum is, IMO not the place for a heated political discussion, because I believe that many people come here to get away from the brutality of reality, as I do. To decompress, as it were.

IMO this is one of the best lifestyle chatrooms out there and Drew is (IMO again) doing a great job of TCB and being proactive. He cannot allow inflammatory comments nor incidents to run riot over his domain.

Peg

[12voltman59]

The now locked thread does go to show that it is seemingly impossible to discuss serious issues like this---anywhere it seems---in a civil manner--that is too bad.

I wish that people could just be able to state their views of things---then just go on----that is what I did----

I just stated my views in the two posts I did----and I certainly did not get personal---I simply posted my views and moved on----

I like to be able to be free to discuss all sorts of topics on this site----I do feel that discussion of things political does have a place here to be certain----since many of the things that happens in politics affects the world and people-----many of those issues--maybe not this particular one----but others certainly do affect our lives---certainly in the areas of sexualty and such---

In the case of Drew locking the thread----it was a matter I think of the discussion getting too contentious for it to reasonably continue, sorry as I am to have to say that---it was not a matter of censorship in this case--just a matter of trying to cut off something negative for the site.

[bret5668]

Having strong opinions and feelings and passion about any given topic are wonderful, however, when you totally disagree with someone else s opinion there are proper and improper ways of doing it, just because someone happens to disagree with you does not mean they are wrong and you are right, nor does it mean they are right and you are wrong. That's what great about humanity, we all view things differently.

How dull and boring would this world be if we all thought alike.

To banter back and forth here about politics and religion is anyone's right. I however will not partake in those discussions, because personally I believe it just causes issues such as name calling, ill will, and hostility for many people due to their inability to discuss these topics calmly and rationally.

After all....isn't there enough bad blood, ill will, and hostility in this world already?

I have always been under the impression this was supposed to be chat/support avenue not a bickering forum. (silly me)

[darkeyes]

I received several messages from members about me lil paddie this morning. One didn't half have me in floods.. Show is a such a silly sausage.. took me quite unawares as if me knickers were suddenly down by me ankles.. which they were metaphorically speaking...

It must be that I have a very narrow view of what gagging and censorship are. Drew has left the discussion up but has pretty sharply brought it to an end. That is gagging. Prevention of further discussion is censorship. I understand why it has been done, because I am no fool whatever else people think of me. Good order and to possibly let tempers cool. Mine has cooled but I am afraid I am not in good order. I remain upset and their is still an inner seethe. I am not the victim here Allbi.. free debate is.

Gaza is an issue about which I have as much passion as any in recent times. I do not expect others to agree with me necessarily, for we all have views and opinions and we should be allowed to express them.. certainly several people were gettin right personal, and no one enjoys being called an idiot.. but I can live with that, and it isn't something which I will lose sleep over.. if only other people were like minded and a little thicker skinned.. but while the debate was getting heated, and some comments were a little near the knuckle at no time as far as I could see, did it get out of hand. Indeed, if you believe the content of this debate is out of hand just look at the letters columns of any mainstream daily newspaper or telly news channel websites. I wish any of you could have been at the anti war demonstrations or meetings I have attended this week... passions run high ok..and while people got riled up, they didn't..in my opinion get out of hand... far worse things were said than any in the debate I began in forums... and even more personally aimed at me and others... I have been accosted in the street, on campus, in the pub and at my bus stop.. but it is someting I believe in and will not give up those beliefs.. and will not accept what I believe is a matter of censorship... we are grown up now supposedly...no one here has been harmed or killed... we cannot say that about Gaza.. THEY are the real victims..

I accept that this is a site which has a specific support/informative/chat purpose...yet I ask...within the Palestinan community in Gaza..take aside that they are human beings for now... and within the Israeli nation itself... are their not Bisexual, Gay and Lesbian people being bombed, shot at and killed? Forget our personal prejudices about Judaism or Islam, about Palestine or Israel... do we forget them?? Are they really nothing to do with us? Both countries have Christian and Athiest/Agnostic populations who and western minded people who hate what is happening.. there are within those communities people who are none of these things..do we let them go to the wall? Do we have nothing to say? From whichever political stand point we may have? These pages over the last few years have been full of many contentious non sexual issues. We are human beings and we all care about many things. We may not agree with each other at every turn..and tempers will rise and hackles will go up.. but to stop a debate becasue a few people get personal and tempers rise?

God... I better go because I feel my inner self begin to seethe just a little more...

[onewhocares]

Fran,
Please, don't misconstrue Drew's actions as a slight on your rights of free speech. What was most offensive was not the subject matter, nor the passion with which you or anyone else spoke. It was the level to which this thread sunk with the name calling and the insults that were being hurled. Having an intelligent discussion is one thing, but when it becomes so vicious that groups of people are being put down, individuals are being called names and rational thought has been taken over by knee jerk reactions, it has ceased to be productive and simply denigrates the subject for which you so clearly have a great deal of passion for. I can't stop you from feeling the way that you do, but I urge you to think about the realities of how this thread disintegrated instead of feeling that you were being censored. The behavior that took place in this thread wasn't in adherence with the guidelines established for this forum and when such a thing occurs, Drew has every right to put a stop to it.

Kate

Frances I must agree with Kate and those others who have posted hence....while most agree that this site is primarily a site geared toward sexuality, how boring would it be if that was all that we spoke of. The various and interesting subjects of the threads is something that I find most enjoyable. But this particular thread has exceeded the common bounds of politeness and dipped into waters that I think action should have been taken and it is Drew's prerogative to curtain further inflammatory comments. Please do not take this as a personal reflection upon you. PLEASE reconsider your thoughts of leaving...I would miss my luffy immensely.

Belle

[allbimyself]

Fran,

Again you are hung up on the topic which has nothing to do with Drew's actions directly.

Furthermore, free speech does not apply to private entities, it applies to government. Drew asking people to control their language, abuse, nastiness, etc. is NOT a free speech issue.

[CUMM2LBV]

DARK:

PARDON ME FOR ADDRESSING YOU BY YOUR FIRST NAME.

HOW ABOUT INSTEAD OF RANTING AND WHINING ABOUT BEING VICTIMIZED BY A COMMUNITY THAT YOU INSIST UPON IMPOSING YOUR VIEWS ON, WHY DON'T YOU YOU JUST HAVE YOUR CLITORIS EXCISED, DON A BIRKHA AND JOIN THE RABBLE URINATING AND DEFECATING IN THE STREET AND ARE OFFENDED BY THE DECENT AND HARD WORKING PEOPLE OF YOUR COUNTRY THAT GO OFF EACH AND EVERY DAY TO WORK AND PAY THE TAXES THAT SUPPORT THEM IN A LIFESTYLE THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY UNAVAILABLE TO THEM ON THE DUNG HEAP FROM WHICH THEY CRAWLED OUT OF.

PERHAPS YOU MIGHT PUBLICLY CONFESS YOUR ADHERANCE TO A LIFESTYLE THAT IS AT LEAST TOLERATED IF NOT ACCEPTED IN YOUR COUNTRY THAT THEY CONSIDER AN ABOMINATION. THEN YOU COULD ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE STONED IN THE STREETS AND ACHIEVE THE PRECIOUS MARTYRHOOD THAT YOU SEEM TO SO DESPERATELY CRAVE.

[darkeyes]

Fran,

Again you are hung up on the topic which has nothing to do with Drew's actions directly.

Furthermore, free speech does not apply to private entities, it applies to government. Drew asking people to control their language, abuse, nastiness, etc. is NOT a free speech issue.

I accept Drew asking people to argue reasonably is not a free speech issue. Neither am I hung up on this, but I feel strongly enough to argue the point which is at issue. Also I accept within our society there are limitations on free speech. I do not accept your point that it simply applies to government but to us all in every sphere of life.

The question is not what limitations should be put on freedom of speech but whether there should be any. I do think that we all have a responsibility never to incite violence or hatred on people for whatever reason.. whether those limitations should be placed into law is another matter.. when it comes to freedom of speech and freedom of expression I am essentially a libertarian but about opening up freedom of speech to racists and hate mongers I have the gravest reservations.. I may thiink libertarian on this issue but not absolutely...

ahhh Allbi..jus like the ole days...we argy bargyin..God me feels so much betta!!! ... an me luffs u an all by the way...

[darkeyes]

DARK:

PARDON ME FOR ADDRESSING YOU BY YOUR FIRST NAME.

HOW ABOUT INSTEAD OF RANTING AND WHINING ABOUT BEING VICTIMIZED BY A COMMUNITY THAT YOU INSIST UPON IMPOSING YOUR VIEWS ON, WHY DON'T YOU YOU JUST HAVE YOUR CLITORIS EXCISED, DON A BIRKHA AND JOIN THE RABBLE URINATING AND DEFECATING IN THE STREET AND ARE OFFENDED BY THE DECENT AND HARD WORKING PEOPLE OF YOUR COUNTRY THAT GO OFF EACH AND EVERY DAY TO WORK AND PAY THE TAXES THAT SUPPORT THEM IN A LIFESTYLE THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY UNAVAILABLE TO THEM ON THE DUNG HEAP FROM WHICH THEY CRAWLED OUT OF.

PERHAPS YOU MIGHT PUBLICLY CONFESS YOUR ADHERANCE TO A LIFESTYLE THAT IS AT LEAST TOLERATED IF NOT ACCEPTED IN YOUR COUNTRY THAT THEY CONSIDER AN ABOMINATION. THEN YOU COULD ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE STONED IN THE STREETS AND ACHIEVE THE PRECIOUS MARTYRHOOD THAT YOU SEEM TO SO DESPERATELY CRAVE.

Very constructive contribution... what does it mean really? Seems a bit confused to me..and so very tolerant and humanist.. and dont shout ..I have a migraine...

[allbimyself]

I do not accept your point that it simply applies to government but to us all in every sphere of life.

No, fran, you are wrong.

The owner of a website, or a magazine, or a newspaper, etc, etc CAN restrict what is said, written, communicated via the medium they own. You can't expect to go to any media outlet and demand they become a vehicle for what you want to say.

If you invited someone to your home, say for a dinner party, only to find out he was a racist, sexist, homophobic wind bag that filled the conversation with his hate, would you ask him to leave? Would you invite him back? If you asked him to leave or not invite him back would you be infringing his freedom of speech?

I'd throw the worthless shit out with the garbage. HOWEVER, if the government arrested him for speaking his views I would rise to his defense.

when it comes to freedom of speech and freedom of expression I am essentially a libertarian but about opening up freedom of speech to racists and hate mongers I have the gravest reservations

Wrong again. Free speech is nothing if any of us can pick and choose what is said by others. Holocaust deniers are sick, twisted, stupid individuals, but most of Europe has stepped over the line by criminalizing those that say so.

However, if I owned a website and someone said it, I'd be well within my rights as owner of the website to block his access and delete his comments if I so wished.

[allbimyself]

Very constructive contribution... what does it mean really? Seems a bit confused to me..and so very tolerant and humanist.. and dont shout ..I have a migraine...

Just another troll, iggy him.

[csrakate]

Fran,
As I said in my email to you earlier, I admire your commitment to causes, your desire to affect change and your tenacity in seeking that change. I haven't always agreed with you but I have always supported your right to speak your mind. But those things aside, this is NOT about your right to speak your mind....this is NOT about censorship...and this is NOT about turning a blind eye to a truly horrific situation. This is about decorum, plain and simple! This is a site where we can share our thoughts, our beliefs and our dreams and while some of those things may not always be pleasant, we have to conduct ourselves in a certain manner in order for there to be a peaceful coexistence between ALL chatters and ALL members. In order to achieve and maintain that existence, there have to be guidelines as to conduct and behavior and if those guidelines were not in place, I promise you this site and most definitely this forum would become a free for all!

I don't like censorship but that is precisely what we have here. If all we are allowed to get passionate about on .com is shagging, sucking, cream pies, cock size then we do ourselves no favours. It gives a signal to the wider world that we are what they often think of us.. perverts with nothing in our heads but sex with whoever is closest to hand..

You say that this site should not allow itself to be perceived by those who criticize bisexuality and alternative lifestyles by merely allowing threads of a sexual nature and I do agree with you there, but just what kind of message do you think we are sending if we allow comments in our threads that spew anti-Semitic as well as anti-Muslim vitriol? How does it look when a site that promotes itself as being a safe haven for those of a like kind and who's membership spans across many countries provides a forum for it's very own members to attack the ideals of one country versus another? Just how does it look when we allow a poster to flagrantly demean another with profanity and hatred? I fail to see how you can find any of that behavior more acceptable and a better public perception of this site and it's membership simply because it is in the heat of a debate.

There is a time and a place for everything and yes, serious topics can and should be discussed and debated. But if those threads cannot maintain a sense of decorum and if we allow all hell to break loose because it gets overly heated, I truly believe we are doing more harm than good in regards to anyone's perception of this group. Just my

[csrakate]

If the owner of the site doesn't want political threads they should post something about this.

AGAIN..I repeat myself..it's not about the subject of the thread....it's about how the posters conducted themselves in that thread.

[allbimyself]

If the owner of the site doesn't want political threads they should post something about this.

If you look at the top of the portion of the page titled "Posting Rules" it states "2. Be polite - flame the idea if you feel you must, but not the person." and "4. Have fun. Learn. Share. Entertain. Discuss. Argue. Enlighten."

It may seem to you that the thread was locked because it was a political topic. However, the thread is still there and you can go read WHY it was locked. Basically, for repeated and flagrant violations of Rule 2, NOT because it was political.

[allbimyself]

In addition to Kate's point, Fran, you claim to be non-violent, perhaps a pacifist. However, if political debates cannot be civil they cannot be productive. If they cannot be productive, eventually you either stop talking about it, or one side or both will result to violence. That's how fist fights and wars start.

[Brian]

All I was suggesting, in closing the other thread, was a time out for everyone to consider posting rule number 2. I was thinking someone would start another Gaza thread in a few days after a cool-off period and everything would be more civil and that would be great.

"Can't we all just get along?"

[Falke]

In addition to Kate's point, Fran, you claim to be non-violent, perhaps a pacifist. However, if political debates cannot be civil they cannot be productive. If they cannot be productive, eventually you either stop talking about it, or one side or both will result to violence. That's how fist fights and wars start.

Pretty much, and its quite easy to get to that point.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Fran Honey. Just come get a big hug from me take a few deep breaths and snuggle in for a few minutes. Draw some strength and relax a bit. And dont Even think about leaving us. We all love and respect you too much for that. Love of good friends is so very important.
We all know your passion, and know your heart, and we dont want to see you leave our lives over a thread.
Just stay here where you are loved and liked.
Big warm snuggly Motherly boob hugs..lol
Cat

[CuddlyKate]

I'm afraid she is in one of her peeves and we are fast running out of soap boxes. Frances is really upset about it all. She may talk tough, but doesn't relish strife although when it happens she will not run from it.

You all know as well as I that she has a wonderfully peculiar, usually pertinent and sometimes even correct view of the world. She doesn't mind being in a minority of one, but I am sure once her irritation has soothed she will come round and see the truth of it. At this moment she feels slighted but it won't last once she has really thought about it.

More than anything she feels the wind has been taken out of her sails and has been thwarted from discussing something which she feels is very important. Give her a day or two and I expect she will be fine.

[DubTak]

Imagine, if you will, that the downward spiral of the Gaza thread happened not on a forum but on a major street in a major city. At the level of shouting and violent rhetoric that that thread reached, police would be called and would arrest the participants for domestic disturbance (or at least a noise complaint). On a much larger scale, the kind of charged emotions that began running in that thread are the kind of emotions that drive two peoples to war.

Drew did his duty as moderator, which is to moderate. It is his duty to keep conversations on this site from turning into a shouting match or an all-out verbal brawl. Much like a referee forces boxers into their corners when they appear to be on the brink of losing their restraint and breaking rules, much like a bartender signals the bouncer to remove two angry drunks, a forum moderator swoops in and prevents large scale conflict on the forum.

I would propose that the reasons for your anger, dark, are not that the thread was locked, which is actually a rather common occurrence on open-topic, community forums, but rather that you feel your opinions on the Gaza situation are being ignored or, worse yet, lumped in with the very flame slingers that caused the lock to begin with. Do not redirect your anger over a war at a moderator simply doing his duty. When tempers have cooled and rational thought prevails, the discussion will continue.

-DubTak

[vittoria]

All I was suggesting, in closing the other thread, was a time out for everyone to consider posting rule number 2. I was thinking someone would start another Gaza thread in a few days after a cool-off period and everything would be more civil and that would be great.

"Can't we all just get along?"

verily.

[_Joe_]

Nothing can rip up the fabric of friendships and mutual respects faster than religion and politics.

When they are both involved, it is never pretty.

[texasman6172003]

WOW WHAT THE FUCK DID I MISS????,

[vittoria]

Nothing can rip up the fabric of friendships and mutual respects faster than religion and politics.

When they are both involved, it is never pretty.

Verily x 2!!!

[Hephaestion]

I'm afraid she is in one of her peeves and we are fast running out of soap boxes. Frances is really upset about it all. She may talk tough, but doesn't relish strife although when it happens she will not run from it.

You all know as well as I that she has a wonderfully peculiar, usually pertinent and sometimes even correct view of the world. She doesn't mind being in a minority of one, but I am sure once her irritation has soothed she will come round and see the truth of it. At this moment she feels slighted but it won't last once she has really thought about it.

More than anything she feels the wind has been taken out of her sails and has been thwarted from discussing something which she feels is very important. Give her a day or two and I expect she will be fine.

If today 17 Jan 2009 the UN are taking at least some of Fran's point of view then she cannot be in a minority of one.

[45&424u]

I just read the thread, and honestly see no reason for the thread to be locked. any heated debate will always bring out strong feelings and criticism for those who see things from a different view point.. so what a couple of "fuck you's" and "idiot" where thrown out, no one was personally threatened. we are are big boys and girls here and can decide for ourselves whether to participate in a thread. If a person makes an obvious idiotic statement, then they need to be called on it.

I don't see it as drew censoring the original poster, but censoring the rest of the forum members.


anyone who believes that hama's has done no wrong and didn't break the land for peace treaty, then they are delusional and see things through rose colored glasses and deserved to be called on it. may i suggest for those that are on the hamas side, please go live with them for 1 month, or plan on a 1 month stay, bet you don't make 1 week before being tortured..

the people i blame the most for this fiasco is the palestinian people themselves. when you elect a terrorist regime into power, thats what you end up with.. a terrorist state..

[darkeyes]

I have read and re-read the original thread and this one and am inside still churning with resentment at the high handed and unnecessary blocking of "Eyeless". There remains so much to say, not just by me, but those on both sides of the argument or none. I almost immediately began another thread to circumvent Drew's action but such was my seethe that as I wrote it I could see that my anger and frustration was such that I would antagonise a lot of people which is easy enough when I am being rational... so I have held back.. for now..

I understand Drew's action.. but I do think it was a bollox decision, for reasons I have outlined in earlier posts. So I sit and brood.. not too badly.. and not all the time.. for it wont spoil my weekend which is both busy and fun... great therapy if you can get it.. I can do that... and most of you also.. sadly..1.5 million Palestinians do not have that option...

.. and a nice lil difference of opinion with Allbi is always gr8 therapy... isn't it? I have missed those....