sex / relationship with a trans natured person

[Long Duck Dong]

before anybody starts bitching about the title or the thread nature, DON'T BOTHER, this is a discussion and if you find that its offensive or objectionable, please start ya own thread so we don't have to wade thru heaps of fighting to read the constructive posts

I do find myself thinking about sexual contact with a trans natured person.... unlike sexual contact with a natural born male or female, I would be making love with a person that is learning about themselves as a new person after years as a different gendered person

now if I was to make love with a pre op M2F, would I react as a male to a male, or a male to a female...

I quess for me, I would perfer a sexual connection / relationship with a pre op M2F that is able and willing to act out the masculine or feminine roles and teach me how to relate to them inside and outside the bedroom, and that I would see them as female, even with the male organs

now would that make our relationship a gay natured relationship ??
its no biggie, its the relationship thats important, not the label

part of the reason I would love to be in a relationship with a transsexual / trans gender, is that they are better in touch with their feminine side than I am with my own feminine side, and they would be able to help me understand the parts I struggle with

how important would the sexual aspect be ?? not important.... I mean, making loving is fantastic....but its not important, and besides what happens behind closed, doors is gonna happen behind closed doors, you wanna know about it, perv thru the window

so why a trans person and not a * normal * natural born person....
well I quess thats cos only a trans person or a hermaphodite has the traits of being both female and male.... the advantages of a M2F trans person, would be that they could be my GF and my BF... i would be able to connect to them on levels that normally would require two natural born people

some of my friends that are trans people, are drop dead gorgeous and having a lady like that on my arm would be nice.... but i would perfer the ladies that bring out the best side of me.....*sighs* and * drools *

I quess part of me would settle better in a relationship with a M2F pre op better than a natural born male or female
I can connect emotionally with females, sexually with males, and mentally with both, a M2F pre op would be the best of both worlds in that respect

when I am surfing the net, and i come across pics of males with semi erect / erect penises, its like they are saying, * look at my cock, isn't my cock the best * the masculine energy turns me off
if I am viewing pics of M2F pre ops, its like they are saying * I am beautiful in mind, body and heart* and I feel the feminine energy in them, and its like a magnet

I don't really know what it is about trans gender people that attracts me so much....they are unique and beautiful people.... and to my way of thinking, a relationship with a trans person, would fulfill a area of myself that i only find, is settled, around the presence of my trans friends

all i truly know, is that in a relationship with a trans natured person, they would not be my partner or my bf/gf etc... they would be the love of my life

I am curious, can other people relate and could some trans people share their experiences about relationships and how they work ??

[Danielle B]

before anybody starts bitching about the title or the thread nature, DON'T BOTHER, this is a discussion and if you find that its offensive or objectionable, please start ya own thread so we don't have to wade thru heaps of fighting to read the constructive posts

I do find myself thinking about sexual contact with a trans natured person.... unlike sexual contact with a natural born male or female, I would be making love with a person that is learning about themselves as a new person after years as a different gendered person

now if I was to make love with a pre op M2F, would I react as a male to a male, or a male to a female...

I quess for me, I would perfer a sexual connection / relationship with a pre op M2F that is able and willing to act out the masculine or feminine roles and teach me how to relate to them inside and outside the bedroom, and that I would see them as female, even with the male organs

now would that make our relationship a gay natured relationship ??
its no biggie, its the relationship thats important, not the label

part of the reason I would love to be in a relationship with a transsexual / trans gender, is that they are better in touch with their feminine side than I am with my own feminine side, and they would be able to help me understand the parts I struggle with

how important would the sexual aspect be ?? not important.... I mean, making loving is fantastic....but its not important, and besides what happens behind closed, doors is gonna happen behind closed doors, you wanna know about it, perv thru the window

so why a trans person and not a * normal * natural born person....
well I quess thats cos only a trans person or a hermaphodite has the traits of being both female and male.... the advantages of a M2F trans person, would be that they could be my GF and my BF... i would be able to connect to them on levels that normally would require two natural born people

some of my friends that are trans people, are drop dead gorgeous and having a lady like that on my arm would be nice.... but i would perfer the ladies that bring out the best side of me.....*sighs* and * drools *

I quess part of me would settle better in a relationship with a M2F pre op better than a natural born male or female
I can connect emotionally with females, sexually with males, and mentally with both, a M2F pre op would be the best of both worlds in that respect

when I am surfing the net, and i come across pics of males with semi erect / erect penises, its like they are saying, * look at my cock, isn't my cock the best * the masculine energy turns me off
if I am viewing pics of M2F pre ops, its like they are saying * I am beautiful in mind, body and heart* and I feel the feminine energy in them, and its like a magnet

I don't really know what it is about trans gender people that attracts me so much....they are unique and beautiful people.... and to my way of thinking, a relationship with a trans person, would fulfill a area of myself that i only find, is settled, around the presence of my trans friends

all i truly know, is that in a relationship with a trans natured person, they would not be my partner or my bf/gf etc... they would be the love of my life

I am curious, can other people relate and could some trans people share their experiences about relationships and how they work ??

I am at the very beginning stages of transition, and have not had a relationship with a man up to this point. However:

Others' mileage may vary, of course, but speaking for myself- as an M2F, I have NO desire to act out any masculine roles in a relationship or in everyday life in general. Pretty much the whole reason I am transitioning is because I am extremely uncomfortable and feel very unnatural in a "guy" role. To continue to play that kind of role even after I begin transition to me defeats the whole purpose of my transitioning. I need people to relate to me as a woman, not a man.

Just my

Danielle

[Long Duck Dong]

lol hugs ya dani....thats one aspect of the situation that i am faced with.....

it would take a person that is happy to remain non surgical but on hormone therapy....
kinda like the pics we see on the net in the ....* M2F non surgical * sites

that raises issues for me, cos i would not be happy if a person altered their transition to suit me... I would love a person that wished to appear female but stay intact in the genital area..... but thats not important.... if I was in a relationship with a M2F and they decided to complete the transition, then i would stand beside them all the way....

anyways, dani, lol do you have or are you gonna have a blog, about your transition...I love reading stuff like that, it gives me a insight in the world and mind of trans people....and thats actually been very helpful to me over the years

[julie]

..for many pre-op transgender folk the cost of hormones, surgery, electrolysis etc is so prohibitive that they realistically and tragically may spend their entire life trapped in 'the wrong body'.

..i think this struck me most powerfully, in my own limited experience,.. that the person i just wanted to love and affirm as another human being was just so dismayed at their bodies representation of one gender, when inside they were so obviously the opposite gender. they were almost totally physically disassociated from the genitalia they had been born with. it was so excruciatingly emotionally painful for them to touch or even experience being touched in such a gender specific place.

this really opened my mind to how deep the feelings of wretchedness can run when someone is born in the body of the wrong gender. Hormones are not for everyone( unfortunately) and without them very overt gender differences such as needing to shave or continuing menstruation must be soul destroying and serve as a daily reminder that this person it truly trapped within their physicality.

..i guess this realisation underpinned my despair at the title 'sex with a trannie' in another thread... because i feel so acutely aware of the anguish that can be present for some folk who feel so very oppressed by their own physicality. i wanted to somehow make a difference to folk who already may feel like enough of a freak show already without feeling that further humiliation is being being heaped on them, no matter whether that humiliation is intended or not.

i really value the title and focus of this thread because it opens up a real sensitive debate on something that is not always easy to talk about. so thanks LDD for starting this thread, i for one really do want to understand more about transgender experiencing without feeling i'm in the middle of a battlefield.

cheers julie x

[Danielle B]

..for many pre-op transgender folk the cost of hormones, surgery, electrolysis etc is so prohibitive that they realistically and tragically may spend their entire life trapped in 'the wrong body'.

..i think this struck me most powerfully, in my own limited experience,.. that the person i just wanted to love and affirm as another human being was just so dismayed at their bodies representation of one gender, when inside they were so obviously the opposite gender. they were almost totally physically disassociated from the genitalia they had been born with. it was so excruciatingly emotionally painful for them to touch or even experience being touched in such a gender specific place.

this really opened my mind to how deep the feelings of wretchedness can run when someone is born in the body of the wrong gender. Hormones are not for everyone( unfortunately) and without them very overt gender differences such as needing to shave or continuing menstruation must be soul destroying and serve as a daily reminder that this person it truly trapped within their physicality.

..i guess this realisation underpinned my despair at the title 'sex with a trannie' in another thread... because i feel so acutely aware of the anguish that can be present for some folk who feel so very oppressed by their own physicality. i wanted to somehow make a difference to folk who already may feel like enough of a freak show already without feeling that further humiliation is being being heaped on them, no matter whether that humiliation is intended or not.

i really value the title and focus of this thread because it opens up a real sensitive debate on something that is not always easy to talk about. so thanks LDD for starting this thread, i for one really do want to understand more about transgender experiencing without feeling i'm in the middle of a battlefield.

cheers julie x

I have to admit, and I don't offend easily, that I was a little put off by the "trannie" reference.

LDD, I wouldn't alter my transition for anyone else. After all, I am the one who has to live in this body, and I don't think that I could be a good partner for anyone as long as I felt discomfort over something as basic as my body.

I don't know if I am going to blog my transition or not. Honestly, it's gone so maddeningly slow that it wouldn't be a very exciting blog at all. But I'll see as I put myself in a better position to go faster.

Julie, you are very sensitive and empathic to be able to understand the depth of the pain and dissonance that we feel. While my dysphoria isn't so severe that I can't stand to touch my genitals (hey, if they're there, I might as well enjoy them the best I can while I've got 'em), it's just- I don't know- odd. What horrifies me is looking at older men, and to think that if I don't do something, I am going to become one of them. I mean, going through puberty was horrible, but I didn't even view transition as a viable alternative, so I sort of just lived with it and accepted it the best I could. But now that I am divorced and am making a major move to a city where no one knows me from a hole in the wall, I hope to have the time, space, and inner serenity to start taking more dramatic steps than I have been as of late.

Thanks for letting me ramble

Danielle

[gjmwbimale48]

Imagine if you can for an instant.....

making a very personal and very physically painful decision that will probably cause you to lose most of your family and life long friends.... that's the trans-sexual reality.... do you also know that in many US states that its legally considered a mental illness, Colorado for one?

Trans-sexuals, trannies,transgenders, TG's or what ever you chose to call them are very very brave folks, who in a forum like this, at least in my humble opinion, deserve our respect and support..... if you think about it, they are the true bi-sexuals....

[Long Duck Dong]

I have been trying to write a reply for the last hour, and i just can't seem to express in words, what I am feeling and thinking

how can a person express in words that they can love a trans person in the same way that people can love a natural born person...

its not kinky, sick, weird, odd... its called love.. being in love with a person that loves me... the trans aspect ceases to exist when a person is in love...you love a person, a lady or man....not a trans....

if I could hug and kiss each and every person in the world that is of a trans nature, I would....but i would be doing it as one person to another.... not one person to a trans.....

I don't see the trans in trans natured people.... I simply see the people and each day that i look at the counsellors guidelines book and I think about how I must treat each trans person as a person with gender identity disorder, i wanna rip the book up and throw it away

I wanna walk down the road and smile at people without *seeing the labels *.... i wanna walk into the local LGBT groups and see people, and not LGBT labels.....

i wanna walk down the road and have people say * omg look at that lovely couple * and not * omg there goes that perv with that she male *

I wanna sit in the local pub with my friends and not have people look at the bisexual with his LGBT friends...I want them to see people sitting at a table, laughing and joking

but thats a dream.... a fantasy.... and i know that the first step to that, starts with me and how I see my friends and fellow site members.....
and maybe one day, I will end up in the relationship i seek..... a relationship with a lady.....well a lady with a penis.... but a lady all the same

I am a freak.... a medical freak... i survived a car accident at 16 that cost me 7 friends, including my partner.... I have had my body modified and rebuilt surgical, I was told that I would never walk again, my body was so badly damaged....

I walk, I stroll, i run ( barely ) I jump ( rarely )...I am not the person that i was at birth, I have a different body....a person that has GRS is the same..... they have a different body...... yet society doesn't reject me for my new body the way they would, a person in a new gendered body
thats something i can't change.... but I can change the way they are treated when they are in my arms and being loved.....

*sighs*.....I give up..... where is the button to attach my emotions to the post..... then the words wouldn't matter as the pain, love, and longing, I feel, would tell the true story

[flexuality]

*sighs*.....I give up..... where is the button to attach my emotions to the post..... then the words wouldn't matter as the pain, love, and longing, I feel, would tell the true story

I'm not sure where the button is LDD.......but I can feel every bit of pain, love and longing coming through.

Literally. And I don't mean empathy.....maybe I'm odd....I don't mean that I can understand, I mean that I can "feel" it.

It's like my gut being ripped up through my chest...this intense longing for oneness....to merge....to become....but deeper....like the smoke from 2 cigarettes intertwining so that they are inseparable, yet touch all things...

Even those words don't do it justice....

Shit this is spooky....lol.....

[Danielle B]

I have been trying to write a reply for the last hour, and i just can't seem to express in words, what I am feeling and thinking

how can a person express in words that they can love a trans person in the same way that people can love a natural born person...

its not kinky, sick, weird, odd... its called love.. being in love with a person that loves me... the trans aspect ceases to exist when a person is in love...you love a person, a lady or man....not a trans....

if I could hug and kiss each and every person in the world that is of a trans nature, I would....but i would be doing it as one person to another.... not one person to a trans.....

I don't see the trans in trans natured people.... I simply see the people and each day that i look at the counsellors guidelines book and I think about how I must treat each trans person as a person with gender identity disorder, i wanna rip the book up and throw it away

I wanna walk down the road and smile at people without *seeing the labels *.... i wanna walk into the local LGBT groups and see people, and not LGBT labels.....

i wanna walk down the road and have people say * omg look at that lovely couple * and not * omg there goes that perv with that she male *

I wanna sit in the local pub with my friends and not have people look at the bisexual with his LGBT friends...I want them to see people sitting at a table, laughing and joking

but thats a dream.... a fantasy.... and i know that the first step to that, starts with me and how I see my friends and fellow site members.....
and maybe one day, I will end up in the relationship i seek..... a relationship with a lady.....well a lady with a penis.... but a lady all the same

I am a freak.... a medical freak... i survived a car accident at 16 that cost me 7 friends, including my partner.... I have had my body modified and rebuilt surgical, I was told that I would never walk again, my body was so badly damaged....

I walk, I stroll, i run ( barely ) I jump ( rarely )...I am not the person that i was at birth, I have a different body....a person that has GRS is the same..... they have a different body...... yet society doesn't reject me for my new body the way they would, a person in a new gendered body
thats something i can't change.... but I can change the way they are treated when they are in my arms and being loved.....

*sighs*.....I give up..... where is the button to attach my emotions to the post..... then the words wouldn't matter as the pain, love, and longing, I feel, would tell the true story

I think it all goes back to our world's insistence on excessive labelling and reliance on simplistic thinking. There certainly is nothing sick or perverted about your romantic/sexual attractions, but black and white thinking where everyone "should" be either male or female has made it taboo. Which I happen to think is a bunch of crap

[Keliana]

before anybody starts bitching about the title or the thread nature, DON'T BOTHER, this is a discussion and if you find that its offensive or objectionable, please start ya own thread so we don't have to wade thru heaps of fighting to read the constructive posts

I do find myself thinking about sexual contact with a trans natured person.... unlike sexual contact with a natural born male or female, I would be making love with a person that is learning about themselves as a new person after years as a different gendered person

now if I was to make love with a pre op M2F, would I react as a male to a male, or a male to a female...

I quess for me, I would perfer a sexual connection / relationship with a pre op M2F that is able and willing to act out the masculine or feminine roles and teach me how to relate to them inside and outside the bedroom, and that I would see them as female, even with the male organs

now would that make our relationship a gay natured relationship ??
its no biggie, its the relationship thats important, not the label

part of the reason I would love to be in a relationship with a transsexual / trans gender, is that they are better in touch with their feminine side than I am with my own feminine side, and they would be able to help me understand the parts I struggle with

how important would the sexual aspect be ?? not important.... I mean, making loving is fantastic....but its not important, and besides what happens behind closed, doors is gonna happen behind closed doors, you wanna know about it, perv thru the window

so why a trans person and not a * normal * natural born person....
well I quess thats cos only a trans person or a hermaphodite has the traits of being both female and male.... the advantages of a M2F trans person, would be that they could be my GF and my BF... i would be able to connect to them on levels that normally would require two natural born people

some of my friends that are trans people, are drop dead gorgeous and having a lady like that on my arm would be nice.... but i would perfer the ladies that bring out the best side of me.....*sighs* and * drools *

I quess part of me would settle better in a relationship with a M2F pre op better than a natural born male or female
I can connect emotionally with females, sexually with males, and mentally with both, a M2F pre op would be the best of both worlds in that respect

when I am surfing the net, and i come across pics of males with semi erect / erect penises, its like they are saying, * look at my cock, isn't my cock the best * the masculine energy turns me off
if I am viewing pics of M2F pre ops, its like they are saying * I am beautiful in mind, body and heart* and I feel the feminine energy in them, and its like a magnet

I don't really know what it is about trans gender people that attracts me so much....they are unique and beautiful people.... and to my way of thinking, a relationship with a trans person, would fulfill a area of myself that i only find, is settled, around the presence of my trans friends

all i truly know, is that in a relationship with a trans natured person, they would not be my partner or my bf/gf etc... they would be the love of my life

I am curious, can other people relate and could some trans people share their experiences about relationships and how they work ??

================================================== =======

Now this is a VERY interesting thread. Thank you Long Duck for bringing a human side to this, unlike the other thread.

As we all know, transgendered/transsexual people are just people. Some TS's (referring to m2f's for this thread), are more feminine than others. There are different dynamics going on in each individual, be it the stage of transition or their very nature.

I have met some TS's who appear to look very feminine on the outside yet spew masculine in their personality. Others I have met were the other way around and anywhere in between. You get my point.

As for "hermaphrodites" (btw- the correct term is "intersex") vary, depending on the severity of their condition are very different from transsexuals, but that topic should be reserved for a different thread.

Back to TS's. For most part TS's do tend to have both masculine and feminine traits. Of course the masculine comes from the nurturing of being brought up male and the feminine comes from either nature or learned going through the transition process. Either way, these people have a sense of two spirits. "Two spirits" is what the American Indians called transgendered people and they were very much accepted. In the polynesian cultures (Hawaii, Tahiti, Samoa, Maori, etc.) transgendered people were an integral part of their societies as well.

As you already know, I am in a relationship with a TS. She is my best friend. My gal pal if you will. Sexually, she can also be a "boyfriend", but in a very feminine way. All in all, I see and accept her as a female.

Does this mean I'm in a lesbian relationship? Perhaps. But again, we're going into labels. Love is love and my acceptance of her is as a human being. How I see and relate to a person is more important than just the genitals.

In many ways, I find trans-women more attractive than GG's (genetic girls). Many GG's take their gender for granted. Trans women tend to celebrate their new found gender, going out of their way to express femininity.

Here's a different twist. If a transsexual person goes through a sex change, would you see/accept her as a complete woman or would you still see her as
transsexual?

[DeafF2M]

Oh, boy...These topic sure do stir up a hornet's nest. LOL

I personally don't use the term "trannie" and I generally prefer to be seen as a man. The fact that I'm an FTM is only a part of who I am as a whole person. I'm a man who happens to have been born female. I don't think I'm any different from any other guy -- except when it comes to my genitals. Everything else is fine.

Now... regarding relationships... LDD, you said you'd prefer pre-ops.. that's all fine and good.. you seem to beokay with the idea that she'd still have her original genitals, BUT, she may not be okay with USING those genitals. Some transwomen are fine with using them, but many are not. the same thing applies to transmen, as well.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol deafF2M....

yeah a non surgical seeking M2F would be nice.... but it would have to be on her terms, not mine

but to me a relationships not built on sex, so i would accept anybody as they are and as they wish to be....my sexual desires and perferences should never be a guiding rule for any relationship...

part of the issue i came across, with writing the post, is that a trans person is in a state of transition and that a trans state is not a sexual orientation
so I would need a gay orientated, non surgical M2F trans person and once again, that term * she male * comes up

to me, the term * shemale * refers to a person that is feminine in body but with a males genitals, that enjoys sex with males....unfortunately, people have got issues with the term so writing posts about some things become long winded descriptions and the descriptions are less clear....

there is something about making love with a lady with a penis that arouses feelings in me, that are emotional, not sexual....a feeling of warmth and contentedness, a feeling of peace....its something that i am struggling to define with words.... but the nearest I can come to a description, would be that I would feel with a trans person, is the type of connection and emotion that people would find with their loved one.....a completeness that doesn't require sexual contact.....

[DeafF2M]

lol deafF2M....

yeah a non surgical seeking M2F would be nice.... but it would have to be on her terms, not mine

but to me a relationships not built on sex, so i would accept anybody as they are and as they wish to be....my sexual desires and perferences should never be a guiding rule for any relationship...

part of the issue i came across, with writing the post, is that a trans person is in a state of transition and that a trans state is not a sexual orientation
so I would need a gay orientated, non surgical M2F trans person and once again, that term * she male * comes up

to me, the term * shemale * refers to a person that is feminine in body but with a males genitals, that enjoys sex with males....unfortunately, people have got issues with the term so writing posts about some things become long winded descriptions and the descriptions are less clear....

there is something about making love with a lady with a penis that arouses feelings in me, that are emotional, not sexual....a feeling of warmth and contentedness, a feeling of peace....its something that i am struggling to define with words.... but the nearest I can come to a description, would be that I would feel with a trans person, is the type of connection and emotion that people would find with their loved one.....a completeness that doesn't require sexual contact.....

Okay, I understand what you're trying to say and I don't question your attraction to pre-op transwomen... but, i think you're getting identities a bit confused and terminologies are a bit confused too...

You said transition is no tabout sexual orientation, but in the same breath you said you want a gay oriented non-op M2F "She-male"...

An M2F, by MY definition is a woman, therefore why would she be gay oriented, unless she was living as a gay man at one time? In which case, it'd be about gay sex... but, that's not what you want. You want her as a woman. Well, dude.. technically, as a woman, with a man.. it's hetero sex, not gay oriented sex.

"Shemale" as I know it, is a term coined by the porn industry, a less than savvy industry when it comes to trans issues. I would take serious offense over this term, if I were an M2F. As an FTM, I have been referred to as a he-she and it makes me really, really angry.

Most M2F I know want their womanness validated, not shot down with a term like shemale. All that does is create focus on her genitals and that's not what it's about. It's about her being a woman.

My 10 worth.

[TashaSW]

My first boyfriend was a FTM.
Our relationship was so nice and great. He had his surgery before I met him and at the time I didn't even know he was a FTM.... and I had only known VERY LITTLE about transexuals.

Well, knowing curious me, I was wondering if he wasn't telling me something I SHOULD know so I reminded him how I like honestly in a relationship.... so he told me... all perpared for me to run out and scream!!

But nope, I just sat there on the couch trying to remember quickly what transexual means and asked him to tell me more about it. I wanted to learn more.

I just care who the person is inside... its the inside thats most important and thats what I told him after he asked why I haven't ran out yet.
He was still the same guy I met so something like transexual isn't gonna freak me out or anything.
And its odd I have ALWAYS been attracted to Transexuals... even intersex people.

The way I see it.... If I want people to LOOK PASS my being hearing impaired and GET TO KNOW ME first before judging me, then I do the same thing to other people... I look pass things other people might not agree with and get to know this person first.

My mother has always taught me that you should ALWAYS treat people the way you want to be treated.
and I know if you don't know, you should ASK... learn. People are only scared cause they don't know how to act around the person.

We are all different and we learn too.
My first ex was a great experiences.... I will always remember him as the best kisser and knowing how to please a woman. :-)

I think people come into our lives for a reason

Tasha

[Keliana]

I've posted this at other places, and I think this place is as good as any, so here goes:

Caroline Cossey, a model and actress was a transsexual woman. http://tgmedia.enacre.net/lorna_lynne/tula.html She was one of the James Bond Girls in "For Your Eyes Only".)

I....am an intersexed female. I have xxy chromosomes. It doesn't define who I am. I don't wear a label around my neck saying, "hey everyone, I'm intersexed!" I interact in life as a woman, I'm seen by my friends as a woman and I am legally and anatomically....a woman. Yet on ocassion I run into a narrow minded elitest who chooses to define what I am, instead of seeing the obvious. I'm surprised to see some of that here, in bisexual.com.

I have a transsexual girl friend. She lives a very mainstream life as a woman and one would never know unless told. She's not promiscous, has values and most importantly a person of character. However there are people out there who would not give her the respect and descency of a human being if they were to find out about her medical history. I for one not only accept her as a human being, but as a woman.

Transsexualism in modern society threaten basic assumptions and truths about gender and religion.

To the average, simple mind, there is a confusion and the destructive labels. It is hard to believe in religious prohibitions when reality itself shows the limits of them. If the word of god is so limited, so meaningless, the universe itself becomes upset for some folks. They find themselves adrift, without answers, forced to think, perhaps for the very first time. They begin to question themselves and their place in the universe, they are filled with nagging doubts.

Scared, confused people can be very dangerous. They can become violent, they can kill. Many transsexuals have been murdered by men that just could not handle the issues they were forced to confront, the doubt they felt, the insecurity they suffered, or the 'Truth' that came tumbling down. These same issues can also lead to other reactions besides murder.

Sometimes the conflict is so severe, that men become convinced that the only way to restore their lost faith is to destroy that which caused it to be questioned. Such men deliberately seek out transsexuals to punish, humiliate, control, or harm them.

Some people are attracted to the taboo and find it exciting. Such folks will find transsexuals desirable only as long as they fit the "shemale" category, (ie- chick with a dick). But what if you've had a sex change and no longer have a dick?

Other folks try very hard to accept the transsexual, but fail at the task, because the conflict between what they were raised to believe, and what they want to be accepting about, is too much. In the end, sometimes the original 'Truth' wins out, especially because society supports it.

People are people. Some people don't like their hair color, so they change it. Some get boob implants. Others get liposuction. It's all done to enhance their appearance, so that they can feel better about themselves and to cope with all the negativity out there in the world. To say that one cannot or should not alter nature is absurd. We as people have been doing this for thousands of years. There are many people out there who are not in the "norm". (then again, what is THE NORM?).

What it boils down to with all this is, ELITISM. I'm above you because I'm more normal than you are. It's the sense of elevating one's self so that they can feel above others.

What is tolerance? -- it is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly -- that is the first law of nature.


Peace,

Keliana

[Long Duck Dong]

"Shemale" as I know it, is a term coined by the porn industry, a less than savvy industry when it comes to trans issues. I would take serious offense over this term, if I were an M2F. As an FTM, I have been referred to as a he-she and it makes me really, really angry.

Most M2F I know want their womanness validated, not shot down with a term like shemale. All that does is create focus on her genitals and that's not what it's about. It's about her being a woman.

lol yeah I ran into trouble trying to express it openly and non offensively

the bit about the gay orientation ???
lol I was trying to walk two lines..... the trouble is trying to second quess the nature of a pre op trans person, if they have decided that they want to remain part male, part female, are they male, or female....???

now in nz, they would be called a she male, drag queen, trannie etc, if they were NOT going to proceed with the GRS and we actually have a parade called queens on the quay in our biggest city... and the people refer to themselves as queens, draq queens and she males..... and thats why its become impossible for me to post about some issues in bisexual.com

so if I talk about the event, I will get shot down in flames for offending people and using offensive names.... for the simple act of describing a event where people do actually use the names proudly

out of respect for people in bisexual.com and the awesome transgender people.... I have decided that its not in anybodys best interests for me to share anything about trans people, cos its just turning to shit for me

[Keliana]

I live in Los Angeles. Next to San Francisco, we probably have the largest transgender community. I've been in and around it for over a decade.

Yes the terms shemale, drag queen, queen, tranny, etc... are derogatory terms and shouldn't be used to refer to transsexuals or transgendered in general.

The term "shemale" was coined by the porn industry right here in Chatsworth (a suburb of Los Angeles), California.

I have seen many tg's refer to themselves as shemales and trannies. Of course those who do, usually don't see themselves as male or female, but a "third gender". They don't want to have reassignment surgery (therefore are not "pre-op") and prefer to live in an "in between world" of male and female. This of course does not fall under the definition of "transsexual" but definately under "transgender" as the latter term is an all encompassing term for all gender varient identified people.

In this case I would say it would be appropriate to term people "shemale".

However, it's best to refrain from using such terms until you know who you're dealing with.

[flexuality]

Something that I have become very aware of from being a Canadian married to an Amercan is that even between the US and Canada that WORD MEANINGS vary a LOT.

We have at least FIVE different countries represented in this thread alone.

We all seem to want to be tolerant and accepting of other's sexualities, genders, practices, etc.....I think we could also try to be a bit more tolerant and accepting of other's language and word meanings as well.

Instead of just assuming that people are trying to be derogatory with thier choice of words (especially when it's someone we have come to view as not being a shit disturber!) I am finding it better to ASK them what they mean before jumping on the words.

I have done this already in a few other threads, where I felt I was being attacked or put down, and I was quite suprised (and somewhat embarassed)
to find that that was NOT the case.

It was a case of different word meanings.

Just my thoughts on that....

[FalconAngel]

Something that I have become very aware of from being a Canadian married to an Amercan is that even between the US and Canada that WORD MEANINGS vary a LOT.

We have at least FIVE different countries represented in this thread alone.

We all seem to want to be tolerant and accepting of other's sexualities, genders, practices, etc.....I think we could also try to be a bit more tolerant and accepting of other's language and word meanings as well.

Instead of just assuming that people are trying to be derogatory with thier choice of words (especially when it's someone we have come to view as not being a shit disturber!) I am finding it better to ASK them what they mean before jumping on the words.

I agree. I was stationed in the UK back when I was 20 and one night when I was dating this young English girl, after a smart remark from her in front of her parents, I jokingly said that I was going to smack her fanny (butt in the US and the pussy in the UK). Oh didn't I feel sheepish because of my accidental faux pas.

[flexuality]

I agree. I was stationed in the UK back when I was 20 and one night when I was dating this young English girl, after a smart remark from her in front of her parents, I jokingly said that I was going to smack her fanny (butt in the US and the pussy in the UK). Oh didn't I feel sheepish because of my accidental faux pas.

Hehehe!

Yeah...in answer to the question asked of me by a British woman "Who's that guy?".....I said "Oh, that guy is Randy, he's a real wanker."

She looked at me real strange and told me what it meant in the UK.

In Canada: "That guys' name is Randy, he complains alot."
In the UK: "That guy is horny, he masturbates alot."

[flexuality]

ummm.....did I threadjack??

Or better yet....what is threadjacking and did I just do that?

[Long Duck Dong]

lol flex.... lol

threadjacking is like hijacking a plane... you divide a thread from its current *path * with the intention of sidetracking it, with your own personal agenda

its like if you have a thread with 20-30 replies about music.... then somebody jumps in the thread and posted about the demeaning and dehumanizing of people from a different country cos of the usage of the music that is intented to create profit but is actually offensive to people of the original country

thats a extreme example.... but as you can see, the thread is changed, it loses most of its * positive * energy in one post and turns into a thread that is totally different

I have no objections to threadjacking as long as its positive and constructive lol

[julie]

and I know if you don't know, you should ASK... learn. People are only scared cause they don't know how to act around the person.

I think people come into our lives for a reason

Tasha

Smiles, i so agree with your approach Tasha.... my own experience also teaches me that open and honest questions break the tension. My difficulty with any labels, be they considered PC or non PC... is my belief that it is always the persons place to define them self... not mine to slap a label on them to make me feel easier.

I have found it much easier to articulate this point in the mental illness thread because i live with mental illness and i hugely resent being referred to as 'a depressive' or whatever smart PC term someone chooses to place on me, because that feels stereotypical or dehumanising... when living with mental illness feels dehumanising enough to me.

Oh dear, now i imagine i may be 'thread jacking'... whatever that means so i'll close by echoing Tashas sentiments.... 'if you dont know then ask'
its better than being a smart arse and risk causing further offence because the label you are comfortable with might not fit the person you are placing it on.

Julie x

[Long Duck Dong]

the trouble is simple, julie, how many labels can be applied to the same thing without causing confusion or offensive

myself, I deal with depression... I deal with S.A.D ( social anxiety disorder )..I deal with social psychotic tendencies......lol
I am regarded by society as mentally ill.... that portrays me as a person that is mentally struggling.... I'm not.... I am managing quite well with the issues I face from day to day... I simply have some differcult areas to struggle with at times

I have also deal with a stroke, brain damage from a car accident, and post traumatic stress disorder...but again the operative words I use are * deal with *

I know what society calls me behind my back... and I don't care.... I simply deal with each day as I face it.... some days are good, and some days are bad.... each day is its own challenge... and I deal with it.....
beats the fuck outta calling myself mentally illm cos that comes across as a life sentence... I live by a day to day sentence lol...

[DeafF2M]

lol yeah I ran into trouble trying to express it openly and non offensively

the bit about the gay orientation ???
lol I was trying to walk two lines..... the trouble is trying to second quess the nature of a pre op trans person, if they have decided that they want to remain part male, part female, are they male, or female....???

now in nz, they would be called a she male, drag queen, trannie etc, if they were NOT going to proceed with the GRS and we actually have a parade called queens on the quay in our biggest city... and the people refer to themselves as queens, draq queens and she males..... and thats why its become impossible for me to post about some issues in bisexual.com

so if I talk about the event, I will get shot down in flames for offending people and using offensive names.... for the simple act of describing a event where people do actually use the names proudly

out of respect for people in bisexual.com and the awesome transgender people.... I have decided that its not in anybodys best interests for me to share anything about trans people, cos its just turning to shit for me

No, LDD... don't stop sharing. I guess once I read about how different terms are interpreted country by country, I can see how we'd have such varying viewpoints on what is acceptable language.

I posted based on what I have seen and heard in the U.S. I do not have any experience talking to people from outside of the U.S., aside from the Internet, so I'm not as culture savvy in those situations.

In any case, what I see and read from you, is .. you've obviously got an attraction to pre-op transwomen and I do not see anything offensive about that. What I'd encourage, though, is embracing the most positive terminology and language you can and go with that. For example... she's a woman. Appeal to THAT nature, instead of the "trans" nature, if there's such a thing.

LOL I don't know if I make any sense at all, but I'm basically encouraging your in your attractions and hope to share some of my "expertise" on the language and terms that will be most positively received.

[teamnoir]

I live in Los Angeles. Next to San Francisco, we probably have the largest transgender community. I've been in and around it for over a decade.

Yes the terms shemale, drag queen, queen, tranny, etc... are derogatory terms and shouldn't be used to refer to transsexuals or transgendered in general.

The term "shemale" was coined by the porn industry right here in Chatsworth (a suburb of Los Angeles), California.

I have seen many tg's refer to themselves as shemales and trannies. Of course those who do, usually don't see themselves as male or female, but a "third gender". They don't want to have reassignment surgery (therefore are not "pre-op") and prefer to live in an "in between world" of male and female. This of course does not fall under the definition of "transsexual" but definately under "transgender" as the latter term is an all encompassing term for all gender varient identified people.

In this case I would say it would be appropriate to term people "shemale".

However, it's best to refrain from using such terms until you know who you're dealing with.

By saying that drag queen is a slur you're putting down biological men who do drag!

How is calling someone a queen a slur too?

I am friends with many camp/femme men and they call themselves queens and it's not a slur even if you think that it is.

I know tons of transgendered and transsexual people who refer to themselves as Trannies so this isn't a bad word either.

I've met TS and TG people who all use these words and encourage others to use them in reference to them so I don't see them as being slurs even if you people down in LA who are stupid and get too much sun happen to!

Up here in norcal in the SFO area we don't see those words as being slurs and it's not a big deal.

[TorontoGuy2007]

LDD,thanks for creating this thread. it's nice to see a thread regarding transsexuals that is of a possitive and informative nature.

i just got back from a week in florida, otherwise i would have been posting earlier..

i'll run a few comments by here...

>I have NO desire to act out any masculine roles in a relationship or in >everyday life in general. Pretty much the whole reason I am transitioning is >because I am extremely uncomfortable

i feel exactly the same was as Danielle does here. I am a very feminine person. i've always felt that ever person has a masculine and feminine side, but in my case, i am definitely feminine-dominant. whether i am a biological male, biological female, or transsexual, it won't really change the fact that i am a very feminine person.

>do you also know that in many US states that its legally considered a mental >illness, Colorado for one?

doesn't surprise me. government moves slower than dinosuars. it takes them decades to catch on with reality.. is it a mental illness? well, i don't think so. i just cleared a physical with my family doctor and was cleared by a psychiatirst as having no clinical depression or any mental illness. as far as they are concerned, nothing is wrong with me.. but deep down, i know i am not happy and not comfortable with who i am.. and the longer i live, the tougher it gets..

>for many pre-op transgender folk the cost of hormones, surgery, electrolysis >etc is so prohibitive

this is definitely the most depressing thing for me to think about. i am at least 5-10 years away from even being able to afford thinking about transition. first things first, i have student debt, i need to get a steady job, i need to invest in some sort of home that i can live in.. it could be years before i can even think about the financial issues for transition.

>i think this struck me most powerfully, ... it was so excruciatingly emotionally >painful for them to touch or even experience being touched in such a gender >specific place.

this is clearly the #1 issue i am dealing with. people ask me why i can't just accept being a male and live my life that way? well, in terms of every day life, i have done ok. i have put myself through school, i have managed to score some fairly decent contract work, i have taken a keen interest in music and sports...

but the major problems are in the social, romantic, and sexual catagory.

i have never been able to sustain any type of sexual arousal with other people. trying to get sexual as a male is the most uncomfortable thing i have ever tried to do. i will never be able to enjoy a sexual relationship unless i transition. obviously, with this in mind, backing up and thinking about romantic encounters, dating, or even socializing or friendship, can be very tough. everyone seems to want to talk about their sex lives, and here's little me with my deep secrets.

with all this in mind, it is going to take one heck of a special tolerant, patient, and understanding person to put up with me and all of this. they are going to have to accept that i am emotionally unstable. i go thru huge mood swings daily. depression plays a major role in my life whether the doctors say so or not. any type of physical contact is going to be very uncomfortable for me, and sexual intercourse will totally be out of the question.


>Of course the masculine comes from the nurturing of being brought up male >and the feminine comes from either nature or learned going through the >transition process.

i agree totally that there are natural traits that develop biologically or neurologically. i may appear to be a male, and many would ask how i know what it is really like to be a woman, well, i just do, i was born this way!

but yes, i have been raised and taught to be a boy, a man, a masculine person, so i can play that role when i have to, even though i don't like it and don't do it very well.

>Some get boob implants. Others get liposuction. It's all done to enhance >their appearance, so that they can feel better about themselves and to >cope with all the negativity out there

exactly. this is the double standard i can't stand. the same people that critisize transsexuals are probably on a waiting list for breast implants! heck, breasts are just as sexual as genitals, so why is it ok to modify them but not other body parts?

overall, LDD, i appreciate your attraction and respect that you have for transsexuals. but i'd be careful as i think you may find that not all pre-op transsexuals will be confortable and confident in romantic and sexual situations. dating a transsexual could be a very difficult emotional situation. but then again, i'm sure perseverance and dedication could eventually lead to a wonderful relationship, so i wish you the best.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol finding what i seek would be like finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.... lol

meanwhile.... I have so many trans friends, bi friends, straight friends, gay friends, les friends, etc etc that I could never be truly lonely......its just the * alone * part that is something that I have to deal with and even thats not that bad lol