In or Out Brexit

[tenni]

Well, a couple of people still on this site are voting to decide whether Britain should stay in the EU.

Will you vote? What were your reasons?

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/22/11992106/brexit-arguments

[darkeyes]

No work today... school is closed as it is being used as a polling station in common with many schools throughout the UK

Of course I will vote. I have always believed in what the press like to term "The European Project". It may not be precisely what I would like it to be, but as with nations, it will evolve, and has since it was the original common market of 6. One of the reasons this referendum is happening today is because of suspicion of how it has evolved, and because of lies, but a primary reason is also because I think the UK is waking up to just how unpleasant and racist it actually is. Deep rooted loathing of the German's and French, Eastern Europeans and Asians, has surfaced in a large part of the population.. how large we will soon find out. Anyone who is pro EU is considered a traitor by those same people and others .. I have been called it myself more than once and spat on and worse.. I will not comment on the killing of Jo Cox except to say we cannot hold the Brexiteers responsible, and I prefer to wait until Mair is tried in a court of law before saying much about him and the killing.. there has been quite sufficient bitterness tyvm.. more than enough and whatever the result the UK will have to somehow come to terms and make peace with itself and wonder what it can do considering just how unpleasant many of its people really are showing themselves to be.. it has brought out the worst in us.

The referendum is happening not because the nation desperately wanted it tho some clearly did... but to save the Tory party from Nigel Farage and UKIP.. to save it from fracturing itself.. well.. we've seen how successful that is. There has been claim and counter-claim, lie and more lies by both sides. People still have no idea of how the EU works.. the claimed democratic deficit, what the commission does, how the parliament works or how the council of ministers does. The Leave camp doesn't want to know.. it peddles the myth of a lack of democracy within the EU and that it is un-elected men and women of the Commission who impose law when that quite simply isn't the case.

I fear for the union that is the United Kingdom.. leaving creates uncertainty as to whether the UK will continue to exist as a state. Should England vote to leave the EU and Scotland to remain, and Northern Ireland for that which is is highly likely, I expect Scotland to vote to secede from the union within a very few years, and I fear for the peace process in the North of Ireland because of treaty obligations incumbent on states which are both in the EU... one of which may soon not be. Wales may well vote to leave too even tho the EU has invested billions in the country.

The NHS as been starved of resources in the last few years by the British government.. the leaders of the Leave camp either want it privatised, or paid for at point of use or by American style health insurance even to they deliberately lie to the electorate that they will inject 100 million a week into the service out of the alleged 350 million a week we pay to the EU.. even if we take Brexiteers at face value that is dependent on us still having an economy when we finally leave (sometimes between 2018 and 2022 I would think). In the meantime we remain committed to spending determined by the EU as per our Treaty obligations. So that injection (if it ever comes) is between 2 and 6 years away. What price the NHS by then?

When it comes to immigration I dread where we are going. If we leave, EU citizens will no longer have a right to settle and work here but will be placed in the great lottery which government will impose upon immigration.. and British citizens will no longer have a right to settle and/or work in EU countries... several million work and live there..and several million have retired to there, Spain in particular. Among Brexiteers there is confusion as to what this means since Brexit supporters continually hold up Islamic and Asian immigration as a reason to prevent immigration from the EU.. in part because we are "too crowded". In part because of terror, and in part because of a perception Asian immigrants from outwith the EU prey on young girls as a result of several high profile court cases in this country. Because of access to benefits, the stealing of jobs etc.. the usual racist garbage. The leaders of the Brexit camp have hammered away at immigration because really it is their only route to power.. which is what they are after... so they can take away from the British people many of the rights and freedoms people have fought and died for over centuries. They have said as much and yet people believe tis is about regaining control from Brussels.. it is.. but not for ordinary people.. not for democratic accountability.. but so Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Grayling, the awful Priti Patel, and the ghastly Iain Duncan-Smith and that sleekit weasel Farage will be able to do what they will without being constrained by European law, practice and custom. And several members of my own party support them which I am finding difficult to understand or forgive.. bloody scary.

I support remaining for all the reasons above.. scare stories sure.. but with justice, for the likes of those people I mention have said publicly they want to do once we leave, as well as the fact it is naive to think that economically we will not be diminished, or that our standing in the world will not be less. Of course the UK can prosper outside of the union but I doubt prosper so well.. and even if it did, as a socialist and internationalist, I believe in the union of nations as a way to keep peace and to prosper.. none will ever be plain sailing. Cameron as negotiated that ever closer union in the EU will not apply to Britain, but he won't always be there, nor will his party, and attitudes change so I can live with that for now. If we leave things become much more difficult, and people keep talking that once we leave we wont get back in.. maybe.. maybe not..

So, of course I will serpently vote.. I shall also be running people to and from polling stations so they can vote just as I have been out working for what I believe in over the weeks of the campaign.. and I am drained.. physically and mentally exhausted. I think the whole country is, but Scotland more than most of it for we seem never to have been away from the ballot box for one reason or other in 2 years.. whatever the result, we all need a rest.. but so bitter has this campaign been that kissing and making up will not be easy, and depending on the result, I suspect now that the Leave camp has let Fascism out of the bag and allowed it to breed, and it will be difficult to stuff it back in, but not impossible.. so hopefully we will not be too exhausted.. I break up for the summer next weekend and need it badly, for reasons other than the EU campaign.. I go to France not knowing quite how I will be received should the vote go against me... but however the vote goes.. because I am so drained and mentally ill at ease, I go not in best of fettle and but in need of much cheering up.

Soz, it's so long, tenni.. I could go on forever but I've said enough. It will take more than a vote to stay in the EU to restore me good spirits, but I am eternally the optimist and I will get there..

[pole_smoker]

Here's to hoping that the UK leaves the silly EU, and that other European countries follow. The EU should have never been formed as it caused more problems than it did solve any.

[darkeyes]

Here's to hoping that the UK leaves the silly EU, and that other European countries follow. The EU should have never been formed as it caused more problems than it did solve any.

Aaahhh me lickle crypto-fascist Poley... knew u cudn't resist opening the cyber gob and letting ur bile pour out! 'Tis plain u kno not of wot u speak.. compared 2 the problems ur country has created for the world in the time the European Union has been in existence leaves the EU looking pretty good and in terms of solutions the US has hardly covered itself with glory there either.

[tenni]

Right now it is sooo close!!!

[Electricblue]

Lets get the chat working first, so I can converse with friends across the pond

[tenni]

Well, as darkeyes predicted, there are grumbles coming out of Gerry Adams about Northern Island wanting a vote to join Eire. Apparently, Northern Island voted to stay in the EU. Rumours of a second referendum for Scotland.

[12voltyV2.0]

Well, the UK did "BREXIT" and even though the US stock market just opened not long ago as I write this----it along with stock markets around the world are having a major down day. Hopefully that is not a permanent thing and it is just a normal knee jerk reaction on the part of stock market investors when some situation arises that upsets the shopping cart.

There have been predictions on both sides that the UK getting out of the EU will be the best thing ever or the worst and will tank the British economy and take down the rest of us as well. With reality being what it tends to be---the net result will probably wind up being somewhere in the middle, some good, some bad--just hopefully with more an up than a downside.

The next potential big hiccup that could roil world stock markets----that instead of making things "better" and things being so great we will be tired of things being so great---Donald Trump winning the US presidency could actually tank both the US and world economies.

Many economic experts who you might think would welcome a Trump presidency, are actually saying his prescriptions for what he plans to do on the business and financial side of things---will actually not be good for the economy.

I am not a Trump fan and for a whole host of reasons, sure as hell hope that we Americans are not insane enough to buy the man's BS snake oil--not that Hilary is much better and has her problems for sure.

Sure is a bummer thing that we have two of the most despised people to run as the standard bearers of their respective parties in one of the leading nations of the world---we sure as hell have sunk pretty damn low---if the old saying about dead people "spinning in their graves" is for real---our Founding Fathers are spinning around big time-so much so--it is a wonder that there has not been some major fires erupt from out of their burial vaults....

[tenni]

Presently, the Australian and the Canadian, dollar are down against the US dollar. Pound and Euro are down. Pound is down at a 34 year low and ten percent drop overnight. David Cameron is being blamed for the world mess. England and Wales voted to leave. Scotland and Northern Island voted to stay in the EU. Will this rip Britain apart?

[void()]

Well, as darkeyes predicted, there are grumbles coming out of Gerry Adams about Northern Island wanting a vote to join Eire. Apparently, Northern Island voted to stay in the EU. Rumours of a second referendum for Scotland.

I think it's a third referendum. I may be in error, yet do think I understood it would be a third one. Been kind of half watching for it, about it. Hope they do attain their independence. Then, they can sell sovereign Scottish energy to the world once all is done and dusted to par, and they produce excess. It would be a great morale boost as well as a financial & green energy boost.

[void()]

Fran,

You pointed out good reasons to have stayed. Some I could agree upon. Some I disagreed on. Seems moot to discuss it further. All I wanted to express was a sense of relief that there was an exit. I think ultimately the whole EU plan was very much globalist in nature. I've fair to good reasons for thinking as such which I won't stipulate here. Suffice that I think our world/s need to focus more upon the local levels. I'm not saying outright protectionism yet we need to mind our own front porches first. I do trust you'll gather up the geese I'm lining up. You know well that with me there is always a keen & kin to balance. I do wish that was more easily conveyed to others, yet what is one to do?

Hugs for your whole family my luv. You guys be safe.

[pepperjack]

It's just, democracy at work, government yielding to the will of the people. We need to see more of this in the world.

[pole_smoker]

This is excellent news that the UK voted to leave the EU!

I really hope that people in Italy, Spain and across the EU demand power back. Especially the young people who have been totally shafted, and fucked over; but whom are sadly also the strongest believers in the EU.. thanks to the education system and culture brainwashing them since childhood.. they're punished the most by all of this and yet still vote for more slavery and misery!

[darkeyes]

The EU was.. still is the best hope for the peace of Europe. Britain leaving as a result of lies and racism doesn't matter..not now... the leaving for whatever reason is enough. The whole EU kit and caboodle though may be unravelling all because of the greed and personal ambition of a few Tory politicians and fascist arsehole.

The young of the UK, who had the right to travel to, be educated in, work and reside in 28 countries find themselves with those rights gone.. the hundreds of thousands of the British elderly who live in the European Union and who have state and government pensions will find those pensions frozen at the rates in force the day membership of the EU ends. Similarly thousands of ex-military living in the EU who have war pensions will find them frozen too... the unemployed and sick, the low paid are likely to once again bear the brunt of cuts to pay for this act of folly.

There will be enough unsettling of the markets because of Brexit as has already been shown, but if more EU countries leave or the EU disintegrates altogether? No 1 can predict how that will play but there are those in Europe outwith the EU who are laughing up their sleeves because they see opportunity to run amok on the continent. Fools like Donald Trump who have no understanding of the spin off effects on America and the world.. and Poley of course who is simply a bastard and a fascist clown almost as bad as Farage who is positively gloating and looking forward to the end of the EU no matter the cost..

I feared it and now it has happened, Scotland prepares for a second referendum on its own independence because of its vote by 2 to 1 to remain in the EU.. I doubt the UK break up can be stopped this time and I am not sure I want it to be. Scots have been lied to and betrayed just once too often by Westminster parties. Demands for a referendum on Irish unity from the North of Ireland are heard... how Irish nationalists north and south react to that and the likely Unionist and Tory resistance is anyone's guess. Thousands of enquiries about getting Irish passports are being made by people from both nationalist and unionist areas of the north.. the former is not surprising.. the latter assuredly is.

Cameron goes.. who in his place I dread to think.. some Brexit arse no doubt. So the government of the UK will certainly swing very much to the right.. fascists and nazis at home and abroad are cock a hoop. The likelihood of a general election looms which may well bring bona fide fascists and nazis in large numbers into parliament... the economy is screwed... the pound in the shite. I rule nothing out and nothing in... the future right now is bleak and once the dust has settled it is likely many will regret voting the way they did. Some, a very few, already have gone public on TV and the news media saying just that.. interviews with a number of Brexiters principally from working class backgrounds are on record as saying they don't know why they voted as they did and others have said that they voted to kick Cameron up the arse.. which sounds very much like a protest vote to me. A protest vote during a referendum which is arguably the most important vote they will ever have cast? Too fucking late now for those who have said they would vote differently now...

I do hope things pan out much better than I fear or they seem to be right now.. I would be heartless and stupid to wish otherwise. Let me just say it isn't looking good and the many in EU are turning on the UK and demanding an example be made of us. Let's hope wiser heads prevail all round..

[darkeyes]

It's just, democracy at work, government yielding to the will of the people. We need to see more of this in the world.

You may well do Pep.. but I am not sure u will like it. It isn't just democracy at work.. it has been a travesty of democracy... if u had lived through it and with it u would understand better..

[pole_smoker]

You may well do Pep.. but I am not sure u will like it. It isn't just democracy at work.. it has been a travesty of democracy... if u had lived through it and with it u would understand better..

LOL no it's not a 'travesty of democracy' or any other BS you want to claim

The EU is a total mistake and it does a lot more harm than good. But keep being butthurt over an election that did not go the way you wanted, claiming total nonsense that things were 'racist' when this is not true at all, and you're just angry about how the UK and citizens of the UK voted to leave the EU and next you'll probably claim that the election was a fraud, not valid, or something else to help you sleep at night. But you're another brainwashed person I posted about in my previous post.

[darkeyes]

I am sure if I was to say that the USA should break up because it does more harm than good, many Americans would do their nut! It is not something I believe, but the USA does do much harm.

I do not claim the vote fraudulent but I do claim the campaigns of both sides fraudulent and corrupt. Nothing unusual u many say and u would be right but never in my lifetime has any vote been quite so disgustingly so. One side was certainly racist and xenophobic... Brainwashed? No, not in the least.. but it isn't just the EU which is endangered but the UK itself.. moves are already afoot by my country to hold a second referendum to leave the union. Not something I am happy about but I am beginning to see no option.. as a committed European who believes in the EU as a great force for good in the world though greatly flawed, what else can we do? Scotland and its southern partner have in my opinion finally diverged too much for the union to continue that divorce seems to be the only solution. Ireland and Wales must find their own way.

[tenni]

It is more logical for Ireland to unite without a border between them. If Scotland separates, it leaves a very shaky England/Wales.

Today, Canadian financial observers point out that Britain was about to become the EU Financial centre. With this split, it shifts the EU financial centre elsewhere. The person also pointed out that Britain has an overinflated perception of itself financially as a leader. He stated that the fiscal growth or focus may shift to the Ukraine and a couple of other emerging countries more east than west. I find this a bit much but.....

[pepperjack]

The EU was.. still is the best hope for the peace of Europe. Britain leaving as a result of lies and racism doesn't matter..not now... the leaving for whatever reason is enough. The whole EU kit and caboodle though may be unravelling all because of the greed and personal ambition of a few Tory politicians and fascist arsehole.

The young of the UK, who had the right to travel to, be educated in, work and reside in 28 countries find themselves with those rights gone.. the hundreds of thousands of the British elderly who live in the European Union and who have state and government pensions will find those pensions frozen at the rates in force the day membership of the EU ends. Similarly thousands of ex-military living in the EU who have war pensions will find them frozen too... the unemployed and sick, the low paid are likely to once again bear the brunt of cuts to pay for this act of folly.

There will be enough unsettling of the markets because of Brexit as has already been shown, but if more EU countries leave or the EU disintegrates altogether? No 1 can predict how that will play but there are those in Europe outwith the EU who are laughing up their sleeves because they see opportunity to run amok on the continent. Fools like Donald Trump who have no understanding of the spin off effects on America and the world.. and Poley of course who is simply a bastard and a fascist clown almost as bad as Farage who is positively gloating and looking forward to the end of the EU no matter the cost..

I feared it and now it has happened, Scotland prepares for a second referendum on its own independence because of its vote by 2 to 1 to remain in the EU.. I doubt the UK break up can be stopped this time and I am not sure I want it to be. Scots have been lied to and betrayed just once too often by Westminster parties. Demands for a referendum on Irish unity from the North of Ireland are heard... how Irish nationalists north and south react to that and the likely Unionist and Tory resistance is anyone's guess. Thousands of enquiries about getting Irish passports are being made by people from both nationalist and unionist areas of the north.. the former is not surprising.. the latter assuredly is.

Cameron goes.. who in his place I dread to think.. some Brexit arse no doubt. So the government of the UK will certainly swing very much to the right.. fascists and nazis at home and abroad are cock a hoop. The likelihood of a general election looms which may well bring bona fide fascists and nazis in large numbers into parliament... the economy is screwed... the pound in the shite. I rule nothing out and nothing in... the future right now is bleak and once the dust has settled it is likely many will regret voting the way they did. Some, a very few, already have gone public on TV and the news media saying just that.. interviews with a number of Brexiters principally from working class backgrounds are on record as saying they don't know why they voted as they did and others have said that they voted to kick Cameron up the arse.. which sounds very much like a protest vote to me. A protest vote during a referendum which is arguably the most important vote they will ever have cast? Too fucking late now for those who have said they would vote differently now...

I do hope things pan out much better than I fear or they seem to be right now.. I would be heartless and stupid to wish otherwise. Let me just say it isn't looking good and the many in EU are turning on the UK and demanding an example be made of us. Let's hope wiser heads prevail all round..

" Peace in Europe " with a 28 member political alliance that hasn't been able to keep ISIS at bay & from infiltrating and committing mass murder at will ? Someone with your intelligence & involvement in education & you actually had put your faith in government to create peace on earth ?

A 'fool's paradise' if I've ever encountered one.

The only peace one can hope to encounter in this world is peace within.

[tenni]

uh...you have kind of described your own situation rather than the EU.

"a 28 member political alliance that hasn't been able to keep ISIS at bay & from infiltrating and committing mass murder at will ?"

50 member political alliance that has not been able to stop mass murders at will. A fools paradise.

That is off topic as linking Brexit with terrorism. All be it that may have been one xenophobic immigration reaction by older Brits. The younger Brits seem to overwhelmingly vote for fluid work places regardless of member state.

[darkeyes]

I accept the point that the EU, on the doorstep of the most fractious part of the planet has been unable to be completely successful in keep Isil out of Europe and people have and will probably still pay wit life and limb.. unsurprising considering considering the chaos caused by Syrian and Western powers .. no 1 has covered themselves in glory. Murder and terror come in all differennt shapes and sizes and governments bear their fair share.. in the US, murder and mayhem is generally far more commonplace than than the EU even now.. some most would class as terror most would consider just fucking criminal killing. I consider the taking of all human life criminal...

..however my point was international conflict... war between states.. and in the 60 years since the initial formation of the common market and throughout its development there has been peace between it members.. arguments which were often bitter, but peace. That member states such as Britain and France in particular have frequently warred against other states is true but these have generally been as members of NATO, in support of the UN or in alliance with other nations or in support of other nations outside of the EU against various internal threats within those countries in what were non EU conflicts. There is a difference..

[Hammermna]

The spread of ISIS to the western democracies is not the fault of any political system or union. The muslim world has high birth rates and in certain quarters, extreme religious intolerance. This combination causes the wars and genocides we see. Just a side bar, the 50 killed in Orlando is a normal day in some parts of the world. We don't expect to see that in the west, but I digress.
ISIS has spread into the west, by taking advantage of our liberal laws and policies. We saw it here in Canada when the PM rushed in 25000 Syrians to fulfill an election campaign promise. Was the appropriate screening done, not only for terrorists ties, but health issues meaning TB and other diseases essentially eradicated in the west? I seriously doubt it.
If Canada with an ocean between us cannot, in this case will not, control and screen refugees how can Europe with land crossings?

[tenni]

The spread of ISIS to the western democracies is not the fault of any political system or union. The muslim world has high birth rates and in certain quarters, extreme religious intolerance. This combination causes the wars and genocides we see. Just a side bar, the 50 killed in Orlando is a normal day in some parts of the world. We don't expect to see that in the west, but I digress.
ISIS has spread into the west, by taking advantage of our liberal laws and policies. We saw it here in Canada when the PM rushed in 25000 Syrians to fulfill an election campaign promise. Was the appropriate screening done, not only for terrorists ties, but health issues meaning TB and other diseases essentially eradicated in the west? I seriously doubt it.
If Canada with an ocean between us cannot, in this case will not, control and screen refugees how can Europe with land crossings?

Now, we have wandered to Canada in a discussion of the exit of Britain from the EU???? lol

Mass murders are vastly more common in the US when there is no state of civil war in any other countries with mass murders. The countries were there are daily murders are not at peace.

Whether Hammermna's concern about Syrian refugees health and potential terrorists are realistic or not is yet to be proven. The government does seem to be putting support for these refugees. I don't know if it is less or more than what was given to other large numbers of refugees such as 60,000 Vietnamese refugees. Other than Euro refugees after WW2, I don't think that Canada has taken anywhere near the numbers of refugees. We still have an ocean slowing down refugee arrivals while Greece and Turkey have nothing.

I have to wonder about youth in Britain though. How big will the backlash be? Is it still possible for this vote not to lead to separation from the EU if a second referendum is call darkeyes? Or is it now a closed book.

It seems most referendums lead to chaos no matter which side wins?

[zigzig]

As an european myself,

I just wanted to add that I'm not surprised by BREXIT happening. There is a possibility that there might be a war in the Western Europe(predicted by Vanga) unless the west europeans change their view and become more nationalists. Luckily Eastern Europe doesn't have that refugee flow coming in, because the Eastern Europeans aren't brainwashed by liberalism and are proud of their culture, and are use to hardships. They don't have good wealth fare system like Sweden or UK, thats why most people don't flock there anyway.

[pepperjack]

uh...you have kind of described your own situation rather than the EU.

"a 28 member political alliance that hasn't been able to keep ISIS at bay & from infiltrating and committing mass murder at will ?"

50 member political alliance that has not been able to stop mass murders at will. A fools paradise.

That is off topic as linking Brexit with terrorism. All be it that may have been one xenophobic immigration reaction by older Brits. The younger Brits seem to overwhelmingly vote for fluid work places regardless of member state.

Your prejudice & disdain for America has always been evident. You made that point long ago.

It's not off topic at all. I was thinking of the " strength in numbers " concept in the context of the EU dealing with a common enemy. I'm sure there are more Europeans that were able to grasp my point as opposed to one, solitary, haughty Canadian who fancies himself an expert on Europe's politics.

[pepperjack]

I accept the point that the EU, on the doorstep of the most fractious part of the planet has been unable to be completely successful in keep Isil out of Europe and people have and will probably still pay wit life and limb.. unsurprising considering considering the chaos caused by Syrian and Western powers .. no 1 has covered themselves in glory. Murder and terror come in all differennt shapes and sizes and governments bear their fair share.. in the US, murder and mayhem is generally far more commonplace than than the EU even now.. some most would class as terror most would consider just fucking criminal killing. I consider the taking of all human life criminal...

..however my point was international conflict... war between states.. and in the 60 years since the initial formation of the common market and throughout its development there has been peace between it members.. arguments which were often bitter, but peace. That member states such as Britain and France in particular have frequently warred against other states is true but these have generally been as members of NATO, in support of the UN or in alliance with other nations or in support of other nations outside of the EU against various internal threats within those countries in what were non EU conflicts. There is a difference..

Points noted and accepted , Dark. An uneasy truce can be perceived as a type of peace as much as a " Mexican standoff ."

[pepperjack]

Now, we have wandered to Canada in a discussion of the exit of Britain from the EU???? lol

Mass murders are vastly more common in the US when there is no state of civil war in any other countries with mass murders. The countries were there are daily murders are not at peace.

Whether Hammermna's concern about Syrian refugees health and potential terrorists are realistic or not is yet to be proven. The government does seem to be putting support for these refugees. I don't know if it is less or more than what was given to other large numbers of refugees such as 60,000 Vietnamese refugees. Other than Euro refugees after WW2, I don't think that Canada has taken anywhere near the numbers of refugees. We still have an ocean slowing down refugee arrivals while Greece and Turkey have nothing.

I have to wonder about youth in Britain though. How big will the backlash be? Is it still possible for this vote not to lead to separation from the EU if a second referendum is call darkeyes? Or is it now a closed book.

It seems most referendums lead to chaos no matter which side wins?

Whenever Tenni finds himself confronted by a truly intelligent argument, he resorts to cheap attempts at ridicule and the syntax of his responses becomes very confusing ( classic muddying of the water strategy ), even incoherent. And he usually edits before posting !

[void()]

The only peace one can hope to encounter in this world is peace within.

Even this proves a farce in attaining sometimes. Yes, it can be had. It takes some doing though, or some not doing. Maybe it is a bit of both? In any case it is not the easiest of things to attain or maintain vigil over once attained.

[void()]

This is excellent news that the UK voted to leave the EU!

I really hope that people in Italy, Spain and across the EU demand power back. Especially the young people who have been totally shafted, and fucked over; but whom are sadly also the strongest believers in the EU.. thanks to the education system and culture brainwashing them since childhood.. they're punished the most by all of this and yet still vote for more slavery and misery!

In some regard, find myself agreeing with you. From my point of view, limited as it is, the EU seemed more of a globalist gesture than not. Think humanity is waking up to comprehending that globalism is not always best. "Bigger is not always better," as is said. That is my thought on it, quite topical and only mildly interested. Yes, I think the people deserve having power back & letting local-ism thrive again. No more mono-cultured colonialism producing one, or two baubles to export for slave wages & debt.

Also adding a thought. The human brain is not a computer, nor is the human body a machine. Thank you. "We now return you to your regularly scheduled zombie apocalypse, ..."

[void()]

... So the government of the UK will certainly swing very much to the right.. fascists and nazis at home and abroad are cock a hoop. The likelihood of a general election looms which may well bring bona fide fascists and nazis in large numbers into parliament... the economy is screwed... the pound in the shite. ...

I feel quite shocked. Not that what you say here shocks for itself on its face. I am shocked you swallowed the illusion that fascism had ceased being. "The greatest trick the devil ever played was making everyone believe he didn't exist."

We have been living in a corporatist sense of fascism for quite some time now. If I regard the history properly a large part of that is due from efforts of the British Crown itself. The industrial revolution brought this about more so though. England could import ginned cotton, spun wool, and trade it off for Indian tea and opium to trade with the Chinese for silver. If the Chinese refused the opium, Britain simply attacked or withdrew other items of trade. It not only followed this policy with China, but everyone.

Now we colonists have grown seeing how Mother builds empires. Are we to blame then when we follow suit? Is it the fault of the Free Market that people can no longer compete? Well, I think it may be. Yet it was foisted upon the world by seemingly every government, out of interest of placating business & commerce, which kept growing, growing, and growing. Now it has it all, but is it enough? No.

Now it wants our minds, our souls. It will use every resource at hand to attain these goals. You damn well know this, I know you do. But here you are suggesting you've not seen outright fascism all along? I can only figure you bought the illusion, the dubious emulation of life. That you accepted it, is shocking.