Gore Vidal claimed that there were no homosexuals. That there were only homosexual acts among the sexual options available to men and women. Suppose that it were proved
that gay and lesbian sex was really a matter of choice and that gay inclinations were fostered by environmental and cultural influences and not a nature determined at birth. . Would that result in a lack of or lessening of tolerance and understanding? Do you engage in same sex pleasures as a matter of choice?
Gore Vidal was gay, and yet closeted about being gay despite living with a male partner for decades.
Someone's sexuality is not a choice as in they can't pick it, or willfully change it. They can choose to have sex or not have sex but that's not the same. So your hypothetical scenario will not happen.
My friends who are gay men or even lesbian women have said how they've only always been sexually attracted to the same gender. Even the ones who did have sex or marriages to people of the opposite gender said how they've only ever had sexual attraction to the same gender, and how this makes them gay/lesbian.
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I wonder if he is basing his thought on a false premise?
Is it equivalent to stating that there are no males only male behaviour? Humans chose which gender that they are going to behave like.
Yet, there are many who observe in male and female babies that there is a difference. Male babies tend to be more physical with their movements compared to female babies.
If the behaviour is seen as positive people tend to tolerate it but if society perceives the behaviour as negative then whether they are born that way or chose to act in that manner there will be less tolerance.
It may be the old nature nurture argument here.
May be?? What else could it be? Vidal's claim is that sexuality is 100% nurture.Originally Posted by tenni
The problem with even considering the OP's question is that sexuality wouldn't be found to be 100% nurture unless it was. And if it was, that fact would contradict the lived experience of 10% of the population, who by and large try like hell *not* to be gay and fail. Therapy, including the whole ex-gay movement (attempts to become "healthy non-practicing homosexuals") has failed miserably in helping gay people who don't want to be gay.
I guess if God publicly manifested and said "yeah...it's not natural"...I guess people would have to buy it. And yeah, in that case, there'd be a heck of a lot less tolerance (unless God followed up his statement with "...but I don't really care either way").
I hope my achievements in life shall be these: that I will have fought for what was right and fair, that I will have risked for that which mattered, that I will have given help to those who were in need...that I will have left the earth a better place for what I've done and who I've been. (C. Hoppe)
If it were a choice, I am sure many gays would want to be str8, go to dances, be at the prom, get married, etc. Mine was not a choice but who I am. I knew I was 'different' on my first day of school when I saw next to a cute dark haired Irish boy with a nice smile.
If we lived in a world that was mostly rational, realistic and truly operated in the letter and spirit that all people have their "certain inalienable rights" no matter what their "race," ethnicity, social class, social group, gender, sexual orientation, etc., and we basically had a "live and let live" attitude regarding our fellow human beings---then it would not matter if sexual orientation was due to "nature or nurture" or simply because we feel its both our nature and right to have sex with any other consenting adult that we want to diddle and/or they want to diddle us.
Unfortunately, we do not live in such a world---at least in this particular universe. I hope that the physicists are correct that there are many multiple universes and as such, there is at least one universe out there that things are like I describe above and people are free to have sex with other consenting adults without there being any legal, social or other negative ramifications for doing so.
There are two components to the question that have totally different issues that need to be addressed. First, intolerance is not confined to questions of sexuality, differences in religion and race are much more likely to fuel the fires of intolerance. So intolerance of gay people is likely to be very loosely linked to the cause of homosexuality.Second, is there a gene or set of genes that dictate who will be homosexual completely independent of their environment?A more likely alternatively question about the origins of gay orientation is:Are there a set of genetic variations of specific genes that determine the percentage of individuals that will be gay as a function of the developmental environment? Neither, of these alternatives are easy to study.But, I suspect the latter is more likely to be true, given, that most all gene expression is in direct response to environmental change or hemostasis continuance. The role of environment in the second hypothesis only determines the actual percentage of homosexuals in the population. The influence of both environment and genetics would be purely probabilistic for any individual person. The negative of these two possibilities for the role of all genetic variation would have to be proved for the question in this thread. I suspect that is very unlikely to happen.
JEM
Even if the OP's scenario did happen tolerance would not change since LGBT people love to stab other LGBT people in the back.
May I suggest some further on the topic of "epigenetics" and how it relates to sexuality (i.e. gene activation/suppresion due to environmental/experiential factors -- very, very fascinating, and cutting edge).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigene..._homosexuality
http://www.the-scientist.com/?articl...omosexuality-/
http://www.shb-info.org/sitebuilderc...rner_et_al.pdf
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus10.htm
http://www.nimbios.org/press/FS_homosexuality
^^^
While I too must disagree with the OP's premise; I've gotta disagree with your premise that "LGBT people love to stab other LGBT people in the back"; except that you've "got me" in your specific case -- I'd LOVE to, in your case!
.. and that nasty little trait is sadly a very human one.. gay bi or str8... wich suggests 2 me summat at least 'bout ur own real life attitude to gay and bi peeps... an wy u act wiv so much dimwittery, bi and homophobia and so little intelligence on this site.. with every incarnation u act and sound all the more stupid, foolish and intolerant.. if u were not these things u would not act and speak on site as u do...
Last edited by darkeyes; Nov 18, 2014 at 4:48 AM.
Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.
Talk about being dim-witted, running your mouth being foolish, and showing little intelligence: you're projecting your own personal issues that you need help with or to work on, onto myself, a total stranger who you know nothing about at all.
What I wrote is true, even if you want to claim, or pretend it's not. It's not homophobic or biphobic to say that LGBT people stab other LGBT people in the back. Since it does happen.
I never claimed that heterosexual people don't do this as well, since they do; but LGBT people are way more open about it, and it's a major problem within the LGBT community. Do you even read what you write and think about if it's factual, and accurate before you hit the post button?
Last edited by pole_smoker; Nov 18, 2014 at 10:25 AM.
o I think 'bout things ver carefully... not 2 sure 'bout u tho...
Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.
I do understand why back in the early "dark days" when if you engaged in homosexual sex----it was a very dangerous thing because you could be jailed, beaten, killed, lose your job, home, family and what not that the argument to stop such things and to secure some modicum of "rights", those who fought for such "rights" held steadfast to the argument that "we don't chose to be this way--we are born this way"----but now that we are past that stage and GLBT people have attained so many "rights" now---I do wish that we could get past saying "that a person is born gay" and that it doesn't matter.
To me---as Ben Franklin would most likely have categorized "gay rights"---those "rights" are not "special rights" but are "Essential Liberties" and as a consenting adult----to have sex with another consenting adult of either gender----is not the business of the government to intrude upon and it does not matter if engaging in homosexual sex is due to "nature" or simply one's decision to do so--- a person in one of our modern "democracies" (or any nation on this little rock for that matter) should not have ANY of their ESSENTIAL LIBERTIES taken away, deprived or denied for doing so.
Of course---as our Founding Fathers put it in the Declaration of Independence, a document that did not just have an effect here in the US but largely became a standard of "rights" for the world---those essential liberties are "The pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness" and all of the other elements of those essential liberties have come to mean in our times.
Last edited by 12voltyV2.0; Nov 19, 2014 at 11:19 AM.
I think the vast majority of gay/lesbian people are either born to be homosexual or otherwise genetically predisposed to becoming homosexual. Likewise for most hetero people being born to be hetero or predisposed to it. In the middle are bisexual people. Becoming bi can result from having a personality trait of being more sexually adventurous and curious than the norm. Bisexuality could be genetically predisposed as well, but somehow I don't think anyone is born bi. I think also that bisexuality is more likely developed through social and environmental experience in childhood and adolescence.
Whoa.
"Becoming bi ..."
This is difficult for me to read.
"... bisexuality is more likely developed through social and environmental experience in childhood ..."
My mother despite her own sexuality never sought to convert, instill, indoctrinate, brainwash, subvert, alter, confuse, manipulate in any way the sexuality of any of her three boys. My stepfather never did either aside from the generic nominative masculine heterosexual derogatory remarks about f**king queers and "oh look at the beaver on that bitch", meaning of course gawking at women. My schooling was mainstream generic Bible belt American public education. There were no alternative sexualities discussed save for later on in junior and high school, which afforded views similar to my stepfather's.
That noted, when I was roughly six to seven years of age, I had a boyfriend and girlfriend in school. And yes, I had an idea of loving both. His name was Patrick, hers Rebecca or Becky for short. The adult teachers had even noticed we three creating bonds, the three musketeers we became. I would hug Pat and sit in his lap with Becky sitting mine. We may not have exactly comprehended the sexuality of it, but we knew it was intimacy for us. We kept being intimate for several months. I kissed Becky, turned and kissed Pat.
The teachers let us be. It was considered better to let us "grow" out of it naturally. Becky and Pat did, I didn't. Years later I worked with a couple, boyfriend and girlfriend. We did realize the sexualities. We did much enjoy the sexualities, of all involved, in most any way one could conceive. We worked together about a year prior to things being brought into a relationship. Then, we worked, f**ked, loved together for around another year. All of us enjoyed the relationship. He enjoyed me, she enjoyed me. I enjoyed him, I enjoyed her. He enjoyed her, she enjoyed him. We all enjoyed each other. Very much so in fact.
This never really effected our work either. We made that a priority, we all were professionals or as professional as we could be slinging burgers. It wasn't an issue either way, work was work, love was love.
My point is I was not conditioned, taught, cloned, guided into, created, made, forged into, groomed into, educated to be bisexual. As far as I am aware, I have always and will probably always be bisexual. Sorry, I cannot get my cranium far enough up my rectum to not be bisexual. Honestly, not sure why everyone isn't bisexual. There are positives and negatives in each gender. Why not enjoy both genders and have the best and worst of both? Also, love is love and love knows no colors, genders, religions ... bah.
Think that was why it was hard for me to read. You're suggesting something happened in my experience to cause me to be me. In my experience though, there was no happening I am and that is --- I am. Sorry, some of us were born as we are. If that blows your logic out of the water, um, erm, oh well. *shrugs* I am not doing it to cause trouble. I am just existing, same as you.
Only insofar that I choose to have sex. I have times when I desire having sex with a man. I also equally have times I desire having sex with a woman. Thirdly, I have no choice in loving both a man and a woman. I love who I love. I do not necessarily choose to say "okay, well, let me have sex with a man now." Such a mood, urge exists simply as it exists. I might be with a guy and get totally aroused by him, or not. The same is true with a woman. To me it does not matter the gender, rather the person. I choose having sex, not the specifics of the desire for sex.
Good example from an erotic dream. Found myself dreaming of some really hot looking gal. We ended up back at her place. Her dad happens to drop in to see her right at the time she and I were planning on getting risque. Well, on looking at him and getting a sense of his demeanor I was super horny. Sure, I was already horny as he** for his daughter, but I then got horny as he** for him also. She had left to grab a phone call in another room. He and I nervously seemed to fumble conversation. His daughter returned, dragging me along off into her upstairs bedroom.
In the dream I never heard her father enter her bedroom. She was busy giving me head. Next thing I know he's wrapping me in his arms and gently nudging me with his solidified cock in my buttock crack. Of course, I do what is natural without much hesitation, reach back and guide him into myself. She continues but pauses a second, looking up with a pleased smile and a wink.
Needless to say I woke in a massive orgasm as without realizing, I had began to finger my anus and jerk my cock off. I came from both ends so it was bitter-sweetly confusing for a few moments. Could not tell if I were cumming or going.
Fortunately, my wife remained dead to the world asleep beside me in bed. I collapsed and cuddled up really close to her shortly thereafter, becoming dead to the world asleep as well. So, I did not choose which to have sex with, daughter or father, I chose instead both. I chose having sex.
First, I believe that homosexuality is a biological condition and not a choice.
Then, I know I am largely straight, every woman I see is measured up and I'm ready to fuck them. I don't see men that way at all. I can't stand the idea of kissing a guy or falling in love with one. My decision to have sex with men is based on my intellectual choice. I like sex and men like sex. I am interested in cock and find I like playing with them. I like dressing in lingerie and pretending to be female. I want to experience sex from every angle. I did not get this way until I was in my 30's.
My opinions are just my opinions and I'm speaking from my own experience. I was born and raised hetero. My Dad gave me the "birds and bees" talk when I was about 9. Until I was probably 11 or 12, I never knew that men could desire other men sexually much less fall in love with other men.
At age 11 or 12, I had a younger neighborhood friend I'll call Joey who was 9 or 10. It was a very small town in Georgia in the early 1960's and rumors and gossip easily spread. All of a sudden one day, my parents forbid me to go to Joey's house to play as I had done for years. They said it was OK if Joey came over to our house to play. I didn't know at the time, but Joey's dad, a prominent businessman in town had been caught naked and in the act with the mayor of our town and it was all over town. Of course I asked why I couldn't go to Joey's. My Dad was rather vague and he asked me if Joey's dad had ever touched my privates or showed me his own or asked me to take off my clothes or watched me pee pee in the bathroom etc. when I was at Joey's house. I said no, I am a boy and Joey's dad is a boy, why would he want to do THAT? My Dad found the words to tell me that some men and some boys liked boys, not girls and liked to kiss boys and do things with boys that are only supposed to be done when making babies with girls. He then asked me if I'd ever heard anyone use the word 'queer'. Of course, I had heard classmates use that word, but never knew or even wondered what it meant. He then told me that queer was the word that referred to men or boys who like other men or boys and not girls that way, but that I shouldn't ever call anybody that name because it wasn't nice.
That is my earliest recollection of the concept of homosexuality. While I was never a homophobe, in my mind I did not understand how any man could want and prefer sex with other men rather than with women. As I posted before, it was a woman, my 1st wife, who got me interested in mm oral sex. All I did was be open to the idea after 32 years of heterosexuality and try it. Why did I enjoy it so much from the very get-go and become bi literally in the blink of an eye? Not because I was born gay or bi, but because I was sexually adventurous and wanted to explore with and please my female lover. I was raised to be tolerant of people who are different from me and to not judge them by their race, religion, nationality or sexual orientation etc.. In my case, I was indeed "guided into" bi sex and encouraged to discover whether or not I would embrace it or not. Needless to say, I did ! I still contend that many bi people come to be bi in many different ways and under different circumstances and not because they were born with a bi or gay gene.
Fair enough, we're both having our own views from our own experiences. I can agree to disagree with your opinion that folks cannot be born homosexual, or bisexual. I believe they can be from my own experience. You believe otherwise. We can each believe as we choose.
Unfortunate we disagree but if everyone believed the same, our world likely would cease sooner than we expect. "Oh look, we all believe in M.A.D.; Let's blow the whole world to bits." Find it odd you believe as you do. Nonetheless, glad you have your view and will not attempt converting you.
I'll just sit a bit puzzled, amused. I may make funny faces at you. Please do not mind that, it'll just be me trying to ponder how you believe as you do. :P
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