The Movement war?

[Gearbox]

There’s also research that shows that there are three times as many bisexual people as gays and lesbians combined. So if all bi people would grow up and come the fuck out, you could throw all the gay people out of the movement! Exile us all.

I took that bit from another thread coz that bit alone deserves a thread of it's own IMO.
YES I know it's Dan Savage being a media whore etc, but is it JUST that?
What exactly is The Movement? How do you view your place in it, if you have one?
And more importantly...........why would bi's want to exile gays & lesbians? Is that to do with turning the tables on erasing?

WTF is it all about? Do I not 'get it' coz I'm bi?
Does being bi, sway you to viewing sexuality to be a whole spectrum, where being gay sways you to view it as two sides - hetro & homo?
Do you (if you're bi) think you are on a 'side'? Or like me, think you are on one big team kinda thing?
Thoughts?

[tenni]

Movement?
Unfortunately, few bisexuals want to join a movement to discuss bisexual rights let alone join a movement to fight for these rights.

The solution for gays was to "come out" of the closet. This doesn't seem to be the solution for bisexuals. I may be wrong but many bisexuals want everyone to relax and don't worry about which gender that they are sexual/emotinally involved with. There is no reason to come out because it seems the goal is tolerance to accept whichever gender that you are with. This frightens monosexuals and baffles them. "You have to come out" is Savages etc. mantra. There may be truth but just looking at this site threads shows more interest in the mechanics of sexual acts is the priority.

So, yes, being bisexual does seem to sway your view to a position where you just want to be left alone. The nagging fact is that bisexuals don't want to be too public about their duo attraction. Is it as Savage would state due to fear of rejection ? Is it cutting down your chances of being with women (many hetero women will have nothing to do with a man who might leave them for another man etc. mantra)?

There is a contradiction in some respects about being bisexual. We are either more evolved sexually than monosexuals or some of us are lying to ourselves? We are more evolved because gender doesn't matter to us and more than two is fine as well.(for some)

[semibi]

Oh, here I go, about to comment on a politically charged thread. I don't really do that. But, since Gear started it...

To me, there seem to be some obvious differences at play here.

Gays probably ended up in a movement because they were marginalized to the point of reacting strongly. Understandable, all things considered.

The most activist of gays are perhaps the ones who are most on the extreme end of homosexuality. Not sure if that's the case, but I suspect it is, logically. The more marginalized you feel, the more likely may feel called to retaliate against the marginalization, and to make a place for yourself.

Those of us who are bisexuals probably don't feel quite as marginalized. After all, we can blend in with the mainstream, so long as no one knows the whole truth. There's not the same call to action, because there's not the same emotional reaction.

Coming out is a big ordeal with consequences. Some relief, but some losses too. Why would bisexuals be compelled to come out, to take on a public identity of marginalization if they don't feel emotionally compelled to do it?

For those of us who are bisexual, living in a monogamous heterosexual relationship, what is the benefit of coming out? Why bother? There seems to be no upside.

For those in open marriages, or cheating, or just living single and having rampant casual sex with either sex, why would coming out make sense? A socially acceptable lifestyle choice is not easily found for folks in those circumstances.

Gays can come out and strive to be socially acceptable to the extent they mirror a "normal" heterosexual lifestyle, that is if they partner up with one person and live monogamously. For some gays that works, and it's what they want. So, coming out and trying to convince others to accept them may be a workable solution.

Bisexuality is less understood that homosexuality. It is certainly not widely accepted. It is not socially acceptable in the mainstream. And, there is not an obvious bisexual lifestyle that fits with acceptable social norms. Having sex with both sexes, or either sex, on the whims of one's bisexuality is likely to feel like an affront to gays and straights, probably for good reason. Most people don't want to be cheated on. In fact, I think most people are terrified of it. (Sorry to push that button Gear. But, while we may disagree on the solution, I think we agree on the premise.)

I just don't see the likelihood that "coming out" makes a lot of sense or has a lot of practical value for most bisexuals. The downsides are greater than the upsides. Increasing marginalization, losing options, challenging social norms, scaring potential partners, etc. What for?

I am for honesty. But, honesty for the sake of honesty doesn't make much sense if expressing it results in a loss for all involved. I think bisexuals should be honest. The context in which they do it is important. And, an "outing" seems irrelevant and the cost/benefit analysis doesn't seem to warrant serious consideration of doing it for most people in most situations, at least to me.

That's my two cents.

[RustyPete]

Social acceptance of gays and lesbians, and same-sex marriage, is perhaps easier because they can and do demonstrate monogamy which then means the wider acceptance of adoption and child-rearing. Bi's (or the polyamorous) innately "play around" and my guess is that it's going to be a tough lifestyle to become socially acceptable, if ever, by any sexual orientation. I am friends with a lesbian couple, married and raising children, and, knowing them as I do, I'd bet anything that if I were to out myself with them they would not like it (or not accept it) because they, too, value monogamy so much.

[darkeyes]

There is a contradiction in some respects about being bisexual. We are either more evolved sexually than monosexuals or some of us are lying to ourselves? We are more evolved because gender doesn't matter to us and more than two is fine as well.(for some)

I'm not quite sure what to make of that para... sounds very lofty and superior.. sounds almost like it cud b a national socialist mantra of sexual politics for wen bisexuals inherit the earth... do we refer to u as Herr Tenni now, Mein Fuhrer... u gonna grow silly moustache unda snitch, slick down the hair and have bi peeps goose-step to victory? I do so h8 face hair as Herr Gear knos only 2 well...We poor monosexuals crammed in2 cattle wagons (well more than u have thought I wos a rite cow) and shipped off 2 death camps? O dear.. sounds awful. Dread 2 think wot it will do to me nails...

Kidding ya daft bugger.. but u have 2 admit.. it dus sound awfully superior... and a lickle pompous!!! Ta for the giggle..

[tenni]

Well dark...if it read superior..maybe it is? Gays want bisexuals to come out and many bisexuals say no thanks. Our sexual acts are our acts. Some younger bisexuals seem to buy into the mantra about being out will make you free though. So, I'm torn and not feeling superior at all. I can see both sides but don't think that gays or hetero monosexuals have the answers for bisexuals as to how to live their lives. One person of the opposite gender? One person of the same gender? Two people one of each gender? Serial monogamy switching from gender to gender. It just seems to confuse the poor monosexuals..lol All they have is just one choice...poor buggers

Ok..Is that as pompous as Savage?

[void()]

Think I will mirror semibi's thoughts quite a bit. Honestly, feel I
have no place in the "movement". See myself as the Treebeard character
of Tolkien's, "I'm not on anyone's side because no one is on my side."

Aside from that, I mirror what semibi presents. It is a consistent
lose/lose for bisexuals to "come out" in most cases. Such being the
way of it, no incentive exists for bisexuals to "come out". I agree
it is good to be honest. Also agree that context matters a great deal.

Why fight to fit where you don't fit? You'll still be ill at ease after
having gained a spot. If it were true acceptance, you would not need to
fight anyway, and you would feel welcomed, respected, granted dignity
and so on. That will not happen. So, why bother asking as I have said
before? Why not merely be on our own respective merry ways and keep on
keeping on?

The other option is to keep kicking a dead horse, or chewing bubble
gum. Fresh out of bubble gum here and tired of sore feet from kicking
the dead horse. You all can keep kicking it if you want. Me? I'm just
going around it. Seems the path of least resistance and easier way to
go. Maybe one day it will all change. Meanwhile I'm not bothering to
wait. I'll just continue living and moving on.

[elian]

Well to me, coming out as bisexual would be something like saying, "I love you" - I have always emphasized love over sex, because the opposition points to sex as something that is dirty - even though it isn't - although anything in life can be abused.

I don't view myself as promiscuous at all because I've had one night stands and frankly at least the way I view relationships, they hurt.

I went to a pride picnic and took a survey for one of the local HIV/AIDS clinics and it was full of great questions like "How many partners do you sleep with? (last week/month/year)" "Do you use IV drugs?" and a whole litany of things that I was proud to fill out so maybe mainstream folks will get an idea that just because you like the same sex doesn't mean that you are a promiscuous dope fiend..

Look at how many debates we've had just over what "bisexual" means? In order to have a "bisexual" movement you have to have a clear definition of that. We have been around a long time - because I think that most people have -some- sort of feelings for other people they form a connection with..whether they are romantic, sexual, platonic, etc.

When you ask questions about how open relationships can become you are starting to touch on things at the subconscious level and you may expose things that people would rather not think about. Adultery will always be there, because it is a function of evolution.. In certain cultures that idea might be too much to bear.

For me, it is hard to imagine poly relationships being healthy and successful in a culture that is ego driven and based on competition..of course not all cultures are.

[darkeyes]

Not superior, hun.. different.. if I took a mind 2 I cud argue wy monosexuals, gay and or str8 r an evolution out of the primordial soup far away ahead of bisexuals.. but it's nonsense of course cos ther r so many differences tween human beings we r none bettern the otha.. some just think they r.. gays want gays to come out ffs.. many are not.. prob at least as many as r even now...but for all that few gays wud say come out come hell or high water to their own kind.. for many gays, just like for many bisexuals, ther r (from ther point of view) good reasons wy they don't... ther r still millions of gay peeps in the closet.. outside of the liberal west sure for reasons we know all 2 well.. but even within the borders of progressive western democracies, there are bloody millions of gay men and women still afraid to be open about who and what they are

Is Savage pompous. Maybe..he serpently is an arse.. he has little or no understanding of bisexuality or why many (more than he would accept) of his own kind even in this day and age find it impossible to come out.. he has little understanding of human beings nor does he care to.. or the society in which he lives.. what he does have is an arrogant understanding of his own mind of the human condition and the world which makes him so dogmatic and right in all he says. In his opinion..... He has contempt for any, gay str8 or bi who don't buy in2 the Savage doctrine... that is true sexual fascism... far more so than I have ever considered anything u have ever said... even if on occasion (no more than that) I do think u flirt and skirt a little dangerously in that direction..

.. and does the fact that bisexuals have the choice of 2 genders confuse monosexuals Not really... some maybe... some cant understand why bisexuals need the choice but that isn't necessarily confusion.. some bisexuals cant understand why we desire only people of one gender. I don't consider that necessarily confusion either.. a riddle to be solved possibly but not confusion as such...

..and why call us (monosexuals) poor buggers If we don't want to have sex with or partners from more than a single gender, that isn't us being poor buggers, it is but how we feel... what our mind and body, our biology tells us.. it makes us no more poor buggers than u for wanting both. It makes us, tenni, different.. not poor.. not especially blessed... just different

[Gearbox]

The solution for gays was to "come out" of the closet. This doesn't seem to be the solution for bisexuals.

'Coming out' is more a double edged sword for bi's I think. Gays can leave hetero-kind behind happily, but it's not so cut& dry for a bi who doesn't want to ditch a gender.

There is no reason to come out because it seems the goal is tolerance to accept whichever gender that you are with.

Is that the goal for 'The Movement'? There hasn't been the progress of acceptance for bisexuality that homosexuality has got IMO.

Gays can come out and strive to be socially acceptable to the extent they mirror a "normal" heterosexual lifestyle, that is if they partner up with one person and live monogamously.

THAT may be why bi's haven't gained as much acceptance as gays?
It's not just a matter of sexuality that most bi's have to tackle, but a few extra social stigmas too.
Those stigmas are usually seen as bad things to the 'hetero norm' of relationships, and undermine what most gays try to project: A hetero relationship, only with same gender.

I just don't see the likelihood that "coming out" makes a lot of sense or has a lot of practical value for most bisexuals. The downsides are greater than the upsides. Increasing marginalization, losing options, challenging social norms, scaring potential partners, etc. What for?

We could guess at the effect of ALL bi's coming out. I don't think that would solve most probs that bi's face. Bi-erasure would die a death, but insecurities of partners wouldn't. Nor would it change the definition of 'the sanctity of marriage', devotion, faithfulness, moral...yada yada yada.

Social acceptance of gays and lesbians, and same-sex marriage, is perhaps easier because they can and do demonstrate monogamy which then means the wider acceptance of adoption and child-rearing. Bi's (or the polyamorous) innately "play around" and my guess is that it's going to be a tough lifestyle to become socially acceptable, if ever, by any sexual orientation. I am friends with a lesbian couple, married and raising children, and, knowing them as I do, I'd bet anything that if I were to out myself with them they would not like it (or not accept it) because they, too, value monogamy so much.

I'm sure a sexually stable lesbian couple would look far better on paper than a pair of bi swingers too.
Nice & simple wins the day in most areas, even if it's makes no harmful difference to child rearing etc. It's odd, but true IMO.

I do so h8 face hair as Herr Gear knos only 2 well

And it's going NOWHERE!!!!!! Well.......I have a booking in August for it.....as yu know.

Honestly, feel I have no place in the "movement". See myself as the Treebeard character of Tolkien's, "I'm not on anyone's side because no one is on my side."

Makes me wonder what we'd be chanting in The Movement if we did chant in 'our place'.

Well to me, coming out as bisexual would be something like saying, "I love you" - I have always emphasized love over sex, because the opposition points to sex as something that is dirty - even though it isn't - although anything in life can be abused.

That's a whole big 'to do' all on it's own there. But I think at the very root of bi's probs.
We've got the 'China Teacup' of love on the 'Anvil' of abuse.The deepest closet that can be found in any relationship IMO. It's not denied or erased, but encouraged and confirmed as 'open'.......when it's so very not! We tag our natures to two poles, just as our sexuality goes to hetero & homo, and our devotion to he/she or I. We want to know, but we don't want to know.....coz our imaginations are far stronger than 'reality'.

For me, it is hard to imagine poly relationships being healthy and successful in a culture that is ego driven and based on competition..of course not all cultures are.

That's our prob right there I think. But no Bi Pride march is ever going to scratch the surface of that. We'd be better off turning the clock back a few centuries and start again from there.

[darkeyes]

And it's going NOWHERE!!!!!! Well.......I have a booking in August for it.....as yu know.

Booking as in get charged, prosecuted and sent down for life and given the whole sentence in solitary confinement, luffly man Lucky ur not in France.. I kno nice police lady who wud arrange it for me if I asked 'er sweetly...

[void()]

Booking as in get charged, prosecuted and sent down for life and given the whole sentence in solitary confinement, luffly man Lucky ur not in France.. I kno nice police lady who wud arrange it for me if I asked 'er sweetly...

*steps out of the shadows not wearing his silly face mask, looks like the old photos of side show lycanthrope children only in about 80% low stuble face* Don't worry Gear. I'll scare her off that French lass. *grins through his goat-tee* See her arrest all us hairy bastards. *chuckles*

[2bi2Bboring]

Have you ever seen the bisexual contingent of a Gay Pride parade? In most cities, it's pathetic! There are far more people representing the L, G and T communities than the B, yet we make up a far larger contingent of the population. It really makes me sad that we are kind of the outcasts of the group as a whole. Much of the gay and lesbian community wants to deny our existence by saying we are really gay and hide behind the security of our hetero side. Bi-deniers say we are are afraid to be gay, some are rather militant about it, really. I was once told this by a gay acquaintance, I never felt so marginalized in my life.

In truth, we are not accepted in ANY community. The hetero community sees us as part of "them", and even the swinging community only wants to accept half of us. The "unicorn", the highly prized single, bisexual female is the Holy Grail of the swinging world. Yet, bisexual men are seen in a near sexual predictor light. The straight community has too many homophobes, or at least too many that fear us enough to keep us from being accepted, and too many easily coerced to that point by society, the right wing political media or religious views.

We, in truth, do to some extent hide behind our heterosexual side. We find comfort in its normality, its conformity. It's our camouflage because we are to some extent sexual chameleons. That may be why heterosexuals don't trust us, because we blend in with them. They see us as some lurking menace waiting to pounce on unsuspecting heterosexuals and further the "gay agenda" by converting them. Silly as this sounds, fear is often irrational. But I have actually heard this come out of a conservative preacher's mouth.

So everyone is conflicted by us, even we are. Like Elian said, we don't really even all agree on what bisexuality consists of. In my own eyes it's more about identity, some say it's when curiosity stops and experience begins. We are all walking contradictions anyway, we all have them as human beings, us just more so this others.

Who knows maybe Dan Savage is right, maybe we would all be better off. Will that happen? No! Would we have more rights if we all did? Maybe, maybe not. Until we have a good reason to come out, we'll never know.

[void()]

Bi-deniers say we are are afraid to be gay,
some are rather militant about it, really. I was once told this by a
gay acquaintance, I never felt so marginalized in my life.

Read what you wrote there. Then, read it again.

Okay, are you ready? Are you sure? Alright, let's go!

Yes someone else chose to express their opinion. They may have
even been boisterous in the voicing of that opinion. Remember,
it is simply their opinion, a subjective expression without basis
of factual information.

Being bisexual yourself, it seems logical to presume you know yourself.
With this knowledge you have factual experience along with subjective
experience. This is your kernel of objectivity in as much as it offers
you an instant litmus test to shoot down such opinions expressed by
others.

"I never felt so marginalized in my life." You wrote above. Okay well,
you in your being made a call, a choice. You chose accepting the
opinion, something with no facts backing it up, of others to inflict
hurt upon yourself.

In a lot of cases it resolves to people feeling hurt, yet they granted
consent to be hurt. You chose to feel marginalized in this case. You
could as I do see the boundless possibilities of the infinite.

"You don't exist."

"Fine, I'll go rob that bank over there. You won't stop me because I
don't exist. You won't prove I did it, because I don't exist. See ya!"

My point is if society continually denies, degrades and otherwise
molests our existence we ought to be free to return the favor. They say
we don't exist. Okay, I say their rules regarding marriage, best sex
with a guy and gal, rules of etiquette are all off the table.

Yay! I can relax now and feel at ease in fiddling with my cute little
non-existent ass in public. What can they say, do? I don't exist
according to them, right?

Let them keep denying. They get fucked by us anyway, or rather they're
fucking themselves in that case.. At least fucking is involved in some
form. I think we have a win. *chuckles & grins*

And you don't need to fuck them if they ask, and they usually do.
Funny how you exist if it gets their rocks off but don't otherwise. Let
them go fuck themselves with this instead.

See? Step out of the way of the charging bull. It winds up
taking a header off the cliff. It won't hurt you again and just
might think twice before coming at you again. *lol*

Disclaimer: With any advice I offer, please understand it may
include my opinion & or personal experience. I may use sarcasm,
gallows humor, dry humor. And most importantly be sure to recall
that I'm nucking futs. You can take the advice or leave it.

[elian]

I've had gay people tell me that before.. "Oh, you're just..."

It stings a little at first, but what usually happens is that they see so many married and otherwise coupled male/female partners who want to mess around with same sex that they eventually have no choice but to concede that there is "something" to bisexual, even if they don't know what it really is.

It is true that I do prefer men over women, but I'm pretty sure I'm more excited about vagina than any truly gay person ever will be..saying the v-word is a good way to piss off gay people..watch..

"vagina, Vagina, VAGINA!!!!" - watches gay people run away, madly clutching their ears ..

Frankly I'm not all that excited about the stereotypical culture which is basically a cross between a meat market and a punk rock scene so whether I "fit into" a pride parade or not isn't one of the criteria I use to judge whether I am a person of reputable character capable of having a long lasting relationship. I hope others feel the same way.

[2bi2Bboring]

Wow, I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition! Quite frankly, I could give a flying fuck where I fit into their neat little gay world. About as much as I give a flying fuck about where I fit into the hetero world, as well. I have always been a non-conformist and a mold breaker. I am comfortable in my own skin, I am comfortable in my own sexuality and really am not worried about fitting into either of those "communities". I wish there was a more coherent and coagulated bi- movement, but in the lack of such a tribe, I come here when I want to feel in touch with my community. It's kind of sad that we are the most closeted of all the LGBT community. Gay and
Lesbian folks are finally getting to the point they can live openly, yet many of us suffer in silence for fear of losing half of what we own in a divorce or being publicly outed. I quit living by the standards of others long ago, my wife knows about my own sexuality and has since we met. I have no fear of living out. I am out, I don't have to worry about my marriage being threatened or my community discriminating against me. I am who I am, I could care less what anyone else thinks.


My point was I was insulted by a person I was trying to convey that I empathized with them. Being of an alternative sexuality is not an easy thing to deal with in our society. I was trying to to convey, at the time, that I could identify with being looked down upon by society. I was trying to convey that we just have to be ourselves and not care about what society at large thinks of us. I guess a more accurate statement would be to say he attempted to marginalized me, to which he promptly told where he could kiss my bisexual ass. He was no better or worse than me, in the eyes of society. In their eyes, you either suck cock or you do not suck cock, they could give a flying fuck what label you identify with. It's something we all share, society's disapproving eye. No matter what letter in LGBT we represent, we are "them" to the straight world. The quicker we quit trying to fight to be included in other communities and make and claim our own, the better off we'll be. Meanwhile, the status quo continues, and most of us just suffer silently. But this generation too will pass, our children won't give a flying fuck who you fuck in the future. Let's hope sexual discrimination dies with us, I taught my own kids I would love them no matter who they love or screw. Hopefully our children will look at us and say to our generation, " What the hell were you thinking?"

[elian]

Thanks for sharing. I think we hit on something - the fact that bisexual people do have alternatives probably pisses gay and lesbian people off, and it makes it easier (at least on the surface) for us to" hide". If anyone is perceived as promiscuous it is probably us, and that upsets them as well because they are trying to build that image of "we're just like you, only not straight."

Bisexual people have a different message..and when I think of my experience, and the literal wall i felt when I used to think I was "gay" - there is a palatable difference. Of course maybe that's just because after years of experience and no longer caring what other people think I am more comfortable with my own sexuality as a person, and not necessarily because I'm bisexual.

I still understand the need for a "pride" movement as long as people feel isolated and suicidal over their sexuality or gender expression but I am getting tired of sexual attraction being a more important distinguishing characteristic then your eye color.

[void()]

"Penis, penis, penis!" - * restores equilibrium & watches the gays shift back to where they were, ponders ... wagers elian may be plotting a game of rock the boat ... lifts elian up into his lap for a better game rocking the boat *

[elian]

(for some reason I can't help but think of the end of the Wizard of Oz)

"Why my dear girl, you've had the power to go home all along, just click your heels together three times and say.."

[tenni]

"I still understand the need for a "pride" movement as long as people feel isolated and suicidal over their sexuality or gender expression but I am getting tired of sexual attraction being a more important distinguishing characteristic then your eye colour."

The strange point about the suicide thoughts and depression rates are that it is not gay and lesbians who have the highest incidents of suicide thoughts and depression. It is bisexual women closely followed by bisexual men who have the highest thoughts of suicide and depression. Gays and lesbians have some 30 % lower rates. Heteros are even much lower.

I'd say that this little promoted idea is more important that the colour of a monosexual's eyes.

[void()]

*chuckling*

Apologies, I was not chuckling over bisexual suicide rates. I do have a point regarding bisexual suicide rates.

In earnest exactly how much of a percent of those who do suicide, do so because of being bisexual?
Perhaps, someone could commit suicide over the morning news. Does it imply they were bisexual?

--

"Well, another suicide. Man, we have got let folks know it is okay to be bisexual. This is a hundred suicide cases in two weeks. If they knew being bisexual is okay, we might cut that in half", the county medical examiner says as the uniformed cop helps wheel the gurney out the door.

"Listen. We can not do that. Our chief says if we let bisexuals be okay, we may as well admit the moon landing was faked", says the reporting state police officer. "We both know that won't happen."

--

"Oh no", little Tommy says.

"What's wrong", asks Gretchen.

"I was thinking how cute you and Patrick look today. You are both dressed nice", he says.

"Thank you, Tommy", Patrick says.

"So, why is that bad Tommy", asks Gretchen.

"My mommy and daddy told me if I kept thinking about boys and girls equal, I would be bisexual", Tommy relates.

"Oh no, Tommy please I'll go over to the swings", Patrick says, and dusts off the sand before going.

"You better stop this nonsense Tommy! If are bisexual, you commit suicide. Everybody knows that", says Gretchen, who storms away from the sandbox.

--

Oh the horrors of bisexuality, the disease from Hades! The inhumanity of it!

In case you do not comprehend, I have trouble accepting bisexuality leads to lives of torment. I also do not accept homosexuality leads to such ends, nor does being straight.

We choose to be happy & focus on the light. We choose being sad & focusing on the dark.
There is duality in all. And this duality lends to a middle path. You choose to understand there is
light & dark, you take life as it comes.

Sexuality is not a choice. We are creatures in nature as much we affront the idea. This means we are sexual by nature. All animals are, some plants are even sexual and asexuality is part of this spectrum.

I grow weary of those whom propagate schism simply for the purpose of schism. Then, perhaps you, tenni specifically, understand well the use of division. I do not care either way. You have no prefabricated solution to offer me and you know it. So, please cease in your needless prattling efforts to divide.

A good number of people who are bisexual, are also very happy. I will not say their happiness is because they are bisexual. They may be happy because they have fantastic jobs, doing work they love to do. They may be happy because they have found a man and woman to share their lives with. Some are probably happy simply because the sun rose, yet again. The point being, they are happy.

And yes, some are sad. I will grant you that. Some are sad because they are without what society calls employment. Some are sad because they miss deceased relatives. Still others may be sad because simply, they awoke drawing breath. The case here? They are sad.

There are a plethora of reasons a person may be sad or happy. Not all of those reasons revolve around sexuality. Sexuality is simply a part of a whole, a well rounded and healthy person. For all the education, the vaunted betterment of Canadian over American, you truly seem to be a benighted troglodyte. You keep playing the same broken record enough, you'll find yourself recalling the lyrics in your grave.

Come on! I know you can think differently. Or maybe you don't think? I don't know at this point. And I am nearing the verge of apathy & indifference regarding you.

[elian]

Hmm, well I remember when I first developed my sexuality as a teen I was very distraught to figure out I liked males. Because of the way my mentors spoke about "gay" people I had very little positive self esteem. No one should have to live like that. I have since had the benefit of good friends and opportunities and more than 15 years to come to peace with who I am. This leads me to feel that love and sexual attraction are something that is universal..

[void()]

This leads me to feel that love and sexual attraction are something that is universal..

Exactly my point, honey. These are universals which are felt by every human being, every animal and some plant life.

And these may or may not contribute to a human, or animal committing suicide. People usually do not know the
rationale behind suicide. They may stipulate educated opinion. Unless, the entity doing it left record of why that
is all they may do, guess.

Besides, as I said love and sexuality are not the totality of an entity. You yourself are aware of how badly
the media in general used to sadden me. Think it fair to posit media with its negativity could lead one to
suicide if allowed. Death of a loved one could too. I recall a friend who at the ripe age of twenty three
committed suicide while in prison. His half brother had died from a car hitting him, about three days prior.

Shoot, a person may even suicide over stubbing their toe on furniture, or the sky being blue. Do any
of these specifically imply anything regarding sexuality? I do not think they do. Ergo, a person can be
saddened to commission of suicide from other factors than sexuality.

Inversely, I have seen people happy because the sky is blue. Seen them happy to reunite with family
after some duration. Seen happiness in being aware the couch was moved to avoid toes being stubbed.
None of those imply anything regarding sexuality. Ergo, people can be happy regardless of sexuality.

Do not misunderstand that I am saying one may be happy without sexuality, as in celibate. Although,
a good number of monks and nuns of varying religious beliefs are indeed happy being celibate. Not
everyone chooses being a monk or nun. People can still be happy no mater their sexuality.

I guess what I am saying is choosing to be happy or sad is a choice. Sexuality I do not think
is really a choice, it is what we are born, created having.

[Gearbox]

Booking as in get charged, prosecuted and sent down for life and given the whole sentence in solitary confinement, luffly man Lucky ur not in France.. I kno nice police lady who wud arrange it for me if I asked 'er sweetly...

I was told that my bag maybe searched for salmon paste sandwiches & vodka, and charged with crimes if (def) found. That nice police lady wouldn't be THAT Gestapo would she? Unless you ask her to be?

[Gearbox]

My point was I was insulted by a person I was trying to convey that I empathized with them. Being of an alternative sexuality is not an easy thing to deal with in our society.

That's what really puzzles me about this biphobia stuff from gays in particular. It's like every subclass needs a subclass of it's own so they feel better about NOT being rock bottom.
The WHOLE POINT of Pride etc is that nobody should be subclass due to sexuality (at least). By being biphobic, they are endorsing sexuality discrimination of themselves, yet play fuck if anybody does it to them.

It all needs tearing down and starting again IMO.YAY!

[WildColonial]

Why do there have to be "sides"? Aren't all of us -- regardless of sexual/romantic attraction or gender identity -- looking for the same thing:

equal rights under the law
nondiscrimination in workplaces, educational settings, housing, etc.
LGBTQIA, etc. friendly businesses where we can spend our money
validation of our relationships (regardless of who are partner(s) is/are)
<add your own here>

In short, what most human beings seek.

What of those of us with multiple "identities"? My GF and I are both people with disabilities, as are several of my LGBTQIA friends. At the LGBT-friendly 12-Step meeting I attend each week, there are seniors, young adults, and people of color. Do we not share a lot of interests with these groups and others?

Just my two cents. Keep the change, or not.

[void()]

Why do there have to be "sides"? Aren't all of us -- regardless of sexual/romantic attraction or gender identity -- looking for the same thing:

equal rights under the law
nondiscrimination in workplaces, educational settings, housing, etc.
LGBTQIA, etc. friendly businesses where we can spend our money
validation of our relationships (regardless of who are partner(s) is/are)
<add your own here>

In short, what most human beings seek.

What of those of us with multiple "identities"? My GF and I are both people with disabilities, as are several of my LGBTQIA friends. At the LGBT-friendly 12-Step meeting I attend each week, there are seniors, young adults, and people of color. Do we not share a lot of interests with these groups and others?

Just my two cents. Keep the change, or not.

Exactly. We are all human beings with universal the same basic needs. I agree with Gear on this, burn it all down and start anew.
He may be a tad surprised in how far I would burn, or maybe not. He often is seen as waving a black flag too, at least from these eyes.

People need to come together, sort out everything, work toward everyone having all their basic needs met. Then, we let folks do
work they love on volunteer basis. Set a minimum of say 20 hrs a month to receive basic needs from a community. that means if you want to help bake bread, go help bake bread five hours a week, more if you want. Want to pick up carpentry or stone masonry next week? Go for it! Find what you love, do it.

And have no worry over any extra needs required from being infirm, elderly or better able. Folks will provide out of compassion, out of love. There will be no pity, no condescending. If there is, you find another volunteer. Same with work and abuse/s there, simply walk off to another job to volunteer at if you get flak at one. This is called humanity, dignity. Also called love, and a system without money.

Drat I am foiled now. Revealed the big cat in the bag. Oh well, it happens.