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  1. #1

    Homophobia from ..well.. errrr.. gay (and bi???) people...

    This was in Guardian over the weekend.. I have said now and then that I think camp gay men are far less prominent than when I was a young girl.. or appeared to be.. increased open-ness and legality I think caused that phenomenon... but is Alan Carr right? I think so among some, and not just gay men... but how much is phobia and how much is simply not fanciobia... wouldn't like to say...http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...camp-prejudice...
    Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.

  2. #2

    Re: Homophobia from ..well.. errrr.. gay (and bi???) people...

    I think Alan Carr has a cheek to call anybody who doesn't appreciate camp - homophobic. Camp & homosexuality are two different things.
    How Mr Carr dresses up as a pink winged fairy and accuses others of homophobia is a bit odd IMO. For many gays (that I've met) 'camp' is a mockery of homosexuality. and doesn't represent who they are as homosexuals. BUT for entertainments sake, the overly flamboyant camp gay stereotypes get the limelight.
    Nothing wrong with camp! It just isn't anything to do with being gay.

    This anti-camp hostility partly comes from a desire to conform to traditional gender roles, which gay men have already subverted whether they want to or not. But Carr has a point: some anti-camp bashing is driven by the homophobia of gay men.
    This utter bolox, is claiming that if you are gay and not camp, that you are homophobic 'heterosexual society' conformists?
    There's a screaming queen in all gay men aching to get out? I don't think so!lol
    IMO it's another example of how the 'Out & Proud' political Gay Reich won't be happy until there is a clear division between heterosexuals and all else.
    Bisexuals get the 'shame on you' spiel for hiding in heterosexual society. Now gays are shameful for hiding there too, as camp-hating masc males.lol
    "You're like my yo-yo, that glowed in the dark. What made it special, made it dangerous. So I bury it, and forget.":Kate Bush

  3. #3

    Re: Homophobia from ..well.. errrr.. gay (and bi???) people...

    reminds me of the issue in NZ recently, there was a gay cruise bar called poof on ponsonby ( ponsonby is a suburb in a NZ city )

    http://www.gaynz.com/articles/publis...icle_14005.php


    well the gay community got their way

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9960...anged-in-a-pop


    the irony is that the name poof was also considered too campy for the straight acting guy males that wanted to have a drink in a bar that was more in line with a meterosexual style bar and they did not think that a campy look for a bar was the right image to have in a bar..... tho as one gay guy put it in another forum, they are acting like a pack of fucking drag queens... its just a name for a bar, they need to stop acting like drama queens and enjoy their drink or forever be a victim of the past and their own inability to move on with their lives.....

    was it really homophobic as claimed by some or is the truth that a gay man is trying to take the sting out of a name and remind us that gay once meant happy and joyful... and finding that the very community that he was reaching out to, are actually the ones that have the biggest issues with seeing things as offensive and homophobic, including their own communities attempts to reclaim a word.......... personally myself, I would drink at a bar called poof, its only a name like all the other names that people have used against me over the years, the people in the bar would make the difference as to if I enjoy the drink or walk out to get away from the animosity and intolerance
    The only thing more painful than a broken heart, is catching yourself in your zip and having very cold hands

  4. #4

    Re: Homophobia from ..well.. errrr.. gay (and bi???) people...

    I know camp and homosexuality are not necessarily the same thing, Gear, but camp is more prevalent, or at least is historically more prevalent within the gay community... it has been and is still the butt of many jokes... it remains a stereotype of the gay man... that there are and have always been gay bi and heterosexual men isn't the point. The numbers of camp gay swamp them.. or until recently swamped... and as homosexual men, through legalisation. open-ness and increasing acceptance seem to have lost that camp for which they were famous.. or infamous, take ur pick... we see and hear some gay and bisexual men, and even in forums over the years, have read them criticise camp. It may be that homophobia is the wrong word.. maybe we need to invent the word "campophobia", or as Tim Bergling called it, Sissyphobia, or me ex-boss, Jessiephobia..... there is no block "campophobia" within any community.. but there is some, and mostly they apply it 2 the homosexual community. I think (hope) that's all that the article says.. anything more is an injustice and an insult.. equally denying that there is some is burying our heads in the sand... and it is important to try and discover just how prevalent it is. The lgbt is divided enough as it is... to eliminate something or cure a problem we have to know and admit it exists.... what is they say about alcoholics or addicts?
    Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.

  5. #5

    Re: Homophobia from ..well.. errrr.. gay (and bi???) people...

    It is an interesting article and a bit thought provoking. My initial reaction is that beyond sexual /emotional attractive all other behaviour of gay people are just social constructs as much as masculinity and femininity are mainly social constructs. Bisexuals are not very likely to want to present themselves as a "pink fairy" any more than to also claim that cross dressing is what bisexuality is all about and if you do not agree then you are biphobic towards cross dressing bisexuals.

    That pink fairy concept is ingrained in the gay/lesbian community as a stigma changed to a positive reclamation. I know a woman video artist whose work deals with this concept. Unless it is specific to sexual/emotional behaviour it is only this Alan Carr's belief that if you oppose camp that you are homophobic. He is accusing those who do not accept his behaviour as homosexual behaviour of being homophobic. No one who dislikes the gay stereotype as a positive representation of their sexuality should be accused of homophobia in my opinion. Some men dress in traditional male costumes. It is part of their gender identity of being a man more so than being a gay man. Alan Carr wants to impose his definition of being a man and those who don't agree he accuses them of homophobia when it is really a rejection of his reclamation of negative stereotypes.

    I think that you are correct dark eyes when you state that Carr is really dealing with sissyphobia. It is more to do with not conforming to concepts of male gender than sexuality. Homophobia is more general a phobia and involves judgement of non sexual behaviour as sexual behaviour. It is an assumption that men who do not conform to masculine gender behaviour are sissies more so than homosexual. The terms need to be separated. Camp is not gay or bisexual. It is questioning gender roles to the most absurd character extrapolation.

    This has little to do with bisexuals unless we ask are bisexual men who do not want to wear a pink fairy costume biphobic? It just doesn't seem to work and Carr has not even factored in bisexuality. Bisexuals deal with homophobia and biphobia.
    Last edited by tenni; Apr 21, 2014 at 11:38 AM.

  6. #6

    Re: Homophobia from ..well.. errrr.. gay (and bi???) people...

    I can easily see someone who is comfortable with people of the same sex celebrating love together, but yet not being comfortable with mincing pink angels, *regardless* of sexuality!

    So I guess, Fran, I prefer your idea of a new term "campophobia" if you (or society) really think this is a sufficiently important/prevalent phenomenon.

    But calling it homophobia does implicitly *equate* camp with homosexuality...and that does a disservice, at least to homosexuality and probably to camp as well.
    I hope my achievements in life shall be these: that I will have fought for what was right and fair, that I will have risked for that which mattered, that I will have given help to those who were in need...that I will have left the earth a better place for what I've done and who I've been. (C. Hoppe)

  7. #7

    Re: Homophobia from ..well.. errrr.. gay (and bi???) people...

    I had not seen Alan Carr as a comedian. Maybe some others may want to see what this man is presenting himself as. He is not presenting himself with fairy wings but his behaviour is not far off what he wants acknowledged.

  8. #8

    Re: Homophobia from ..well.. errrr.. gay (and bi???) people...

    Heh. Thanks for that post tenni. I don't find him that funny. Strangely, most of what he seems to want us to find funny isn't so much the jokes but the very style he wants accepted (I mean, honestly, if he wants us to find his jokes funny, even in the absence of his style, then in my opinion he really has an unimpressive sense of humor).

    But ok, taste aside, let me revise my statement slightly. It's a difference between sexuality and gender. I can easily see someone being absolutely fine with a same-sex couple celebrating their love together, but not appreciating his level of gender variance (which is really where "gay camp" originates). Perhaps that indicates a level of *transphobia* (oh gods, here we go again), but I still can't see it as homophobia. And again, people who conflate the two do homosexuals (and bisexuals, really, if not also gender variant people) a disservice.
    I hope my achievements in life shall be these: that I will have fought for what was right and fair, that I will have risked for that which mattered, that I will have given help to those who were in need...that I will have left the earth a better place for what I've done and who I've been. (C. Hoppe)

  9. #9

    Re: Homophobia from ..well.. errrr.. gay (and bi???) people...

    I guess this means I can no longer sing "The Camptown Racetrack" in the shower....

  10. #10

    Re: Homophobia from ..well.. errrr.. gay (and bi???) people...

    I bet my money on the bob tail nag, somebody bet on the bay...

  11. #11

    Re: Homophobia from ..well.. errrr.. gay (and bi???) people...

    Quote Originally Posted by darkeyes View Post
    I know camp and homosexuality are not necessarily the same thing, Gear, but camp is more prevalent, or at least is historically more prevalent within the gay community... it has been and is still the butt of many jokes... it remains a stereotype of the gay man... that there are and have always been gay bi and heterosexual men isn't the point. The numbers of camp gay swamp them.. or until recently swamped... and as homosexual men, through legalisation. open-ness and increasing acceptance seem to have lost that camp for which they were famous.. or infamous, take ur pick... we see and hear some gay and bisexual men, and even in forums over the years, have read them criticise camp. It may be that homophobia is the wrong word.. maybe we need to invent the word "campophobia", or as Tim Bergling called it, Sissyphobia, or me ex-boss, Jessiephobia..... there is no block "campophobia" within any community.. but there is some, and mostly they apply it 2 the homosexual community. I think (hope) that's all that the article says.. anything more is an injustice and an insult.. equally denying that there is some is burying our heads in the sand... and it is important to try and discover just how prevalent it is. The lgbt is divided enough as it is... to eliminate something or cure a problem we have to know and admit it exists.... what is they say about alcoholics or addicts?
    Yeh I think 'Campphobia' is a better description. There's a lot of it on hookup sites from gays & bi's who state that it's a turnoff for them, and that they are 'straight acting' & 'non-scene'.
    I'll even take issue with the 'straight acting' fiasco. When I read that on profiles it sounds like they are fighting some genetic condition that SHOULD make them camp as Christmas, and have to 'act' non-camp. OR that they have to point out that they are not the stereotypical gay man.....to other gay men.
    I don't know which is more worrying! They are not acting, and are naturally 'that way' same as camp gays are........although the latter are accused of acting a lot.lol
    The problem the LGBT have is identities. There just isn't one ID that suits all of any sexuality. What should be blatantly obvious is the variety, which includes hetero's as well. IMO that's where the LGBT falls flat on it's political arse. Scrap 'heterosexual society' and admit it's a multi-sexual society that's all inclusive.
    "You're like my yo-yo, that glowed in the dark. What made it special, made it dangerous. So I bury it, and forget.":Kate Bush

  12. #12

    Re: Homophobia from ..well.. errrr.. gay (and bi???) people...

    He isn't funny, Annika... not in least. Somehow some folk think he is... sad wazzocks if u ask me, but there is no accounting for taste. There are less funny peeps in British comedy.. but not many...

    ...but if I may contradict u at least in part.. there is some homophobia involved by some people.. those who consider camp guys as no moren "poofs" and wud think nowt bout giving them a kicking. Some camp guys who r str8 (and they do exist) have had kickings for being "poofs"...and worse... never judge a book by its cover but since wen do the worst of the world's bigots give even the cover more than a cursory glance? Several gay guys I know think camp is a sin against the lifestyle and therefore an insult against their sexuality.. whether or not they are gay... acting or being camp is treating what they are with contempt and is considered by some as almost as a mockery of what they are... a stereotypical, outdated, contemptuous caricature. Is there homophobia involved in that? To some degree by some people.. if we believe people can be what they are and should be allowed to act what they are in their own way. To condemn and loathe someone for acting in a particular way may well be "campophobia" for want of a better description, but by denying those who are acting as their personality dictates, and having contempt for the way they display their sexuality, what else can we call this "campophobia" when aimed at homosexuals who are camp but a form of homophobia, even when that persecution is carried out by other homosexuals? I would argue that it is at times an overlap of phobias...

    I don't wish to make more of this than there is, but I do think there is some justice in the claim.. not as much as Carr feels perhaps, but we shouldn't dismiss it entirely. "I have nothing against them.. some of my best friends are gay men (camp or othawise)... I am not prejudiced." I've heard things like that said about many different kinds of people throughout my life... by those who claim not to have a phobia and who claim not 2 b in least bigoted.. and we know what we have done with such claims do we not? And as 2 Gear's multisexual society he is rite.. tho I prefer we just call it a sexual society wer peeps can b wot peeps r without hassle cos otha peeps aren't... and b accepted as who and what they r without prejudice..
    Last edited by darkeyes; Apr 22, 2014 at 11:44 AM.
    Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.

 

 

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