Why I am a exile..... pansexual in a world of sexuality....

[Gearbox]

Does that tell you what you wanted to know?

Yes I think so.Thanks.
That's how I thought it was. But with all this talk of 'other gender', I wasn't sure if Transgender was that 'other gender'. YES, dumb I know! But if you don't ask......

When I think of a transgendered person, I can't help but think of the troubles they went through to get to m/f. That part of your past IS a part of you as your female self, and I can see how the transgender label is about your experience, and not gender now. We should be thanking you for that. I can't put myself in your shoes, but I'd not allow anybody to class me as male. They can have their opinions, but that's that!
Easy for me to say! I just have the hetero & homo labels to contend with, and that's nauseating enough! You have that as a bonus 'misconception' opportunity. Lucky you.lol

It's just nice to know that the female voice I read your posts with is ok. Back to normal. Panic over!
Thanks.

[tenni]

I totally agree with you on the underlined part. It would be crazy and disrespectful to spring a surprise of that kind on anyone. Not that the whole situation would have been appealing at that time anyway, since sex became difficult during transition. Much better now. And yeah, if I was getting into a relationship with someone today, I would also tell them. What I think sucks is that there's a good chance telling them would end the relationship. But I'd still tell them. If that would end the relationship, that is what I think is transphobic.


I don't. I totally don't. That's what I said. Maybe you misunderstood. Such a cis-male might be transphobic, but just his not being attracted to a transwoman in transition doesn't make him transphobic. Not to me anyway. I'm glad you don't hate or fear me, lol.

tm

Hi
Glad to read that you agree that just because you are not attracted to a transperson in transition doesn't "necessarily" mean that you are transphobic. As I understand biracial (a transwoman) she seemed to think that it made you transphobic. I think that it is unfair that someone might be initially attracted to you after transition and then not if they find out that you were born a male. That does seem unfortunate. I'm not sure if that makes the guy transphobic but you are wise to put your cards on the table. It must be irritating though to realize that you need to disclose that to a new potential lover. I do so admire you. You seem to be so together. I most definitely like you. On the internet we are all just people with our personalities guiding us. No gender restrictions. Interesting is it not?

[transcendMental]

It's just nice to know that the female voice I read your posts with is ok.

First, you can't begin to know how much that means to me.

with all this talk of 'other gender', I wasn't sure if Transgender was that 'other gender'. YES, dumb I know! But if you don't ask......

Not dumb at all! There are many in the transgendered spectrum who do identify as a 3rd gender, other gender, 2-spirit, agender, etc., so your confusion is natural. They confuse me too, since I can't identify with their experience either. But it's still a valid experience.

I can't put myself in your shoes, but I'd not allow anybody to class me as male. They can have their opinions, but that's that!

I think I know what you mean, but it's not just my choice. Even if they say nothing to me about it, even if they don't realize they're doing it, they treat me differently. We react differently to/with men than we do to/with women. I have total confirmation of this now. And if a man ever really treated a woman like they treat a man, she'd be very disoriented. That was my daily reality until transition. And it's still my reality with people who knew me before who don't get it. I never owned people's "classing me as male" before; I still don't; but it still affects me and is still painful.

But thanking me? Never heard anyone voice that before. Between you and tenni, you're making me cry here.

I think that it is unfair that someone might be initially attracted to you after transition and then not if they find out that you were born a male. That does seem unfortunate. I'm not sure if that makes the guy transphobic

If a guy in that position changes his mind about me because he wants babies, that's something other than transphobia. But if he was attracted before and isn't after hearing I was born male, I have a hard time seeing much else than transphobia as the explanation. It's like if I said I was attracted to you before learning you were Canadian, but now I'm not. I think if that happened it would be ok to infer that I'm prejudiced against Canadians.

but you are wise to put your cards on the table. It must be irritating though to realize that you need to disclose that to a new potential lover. I do so admire you. You seem to be so together. I most definitely like you.

Have to disclose to every potential lover. For life. It's a sentence.

But admiration? Together? My head's spinning. I like you too, tenni.

Feelin' the love and enjoying the glow!
tm

[Long Duck Dong]

the issue is that while you may see yourself as a female, some guys are not going to see you that way, they may see a guy that is surgically altered to impersonate a female.... the trans part may not even factor into it because trans is a label that people use but personal interaction rarely revolves about the label .....

its something I see a lot with people that are looking at a situation rather than a person....... and a example of that is looking at your partner, how often do you disagree with something they may be because they are a straight person.... most times you are personally close to a person so you stop seeing them as a label and more of a person......
and the other side of the coin is how often do we see our partners seeing faults in us, as part of a phobic reaction...... then compare it to the times that we can see behievour as phobic in other people that we are not personally connected with......

honestly a lot of people find it hard to connect to a person that has * changed * in their eyes.....and by that I mean that they can fall in love with us as a person, but when they find out that we are ex criminals, ex drug addicts, ex alcoholics, their attraction to us can change.. and that behievour is not considered to be phobic..... but it is if our sexuality or gender aspects are the reason why they do not want to be involved with us, when the reality is that its not always the sexuality that is the issue, its the behievour that we want our partners to accept and embrace, that actually the root cause......

being out has been interesting in the fact that it has given me the chance to watch the change in dynamics in people when they realise that the person that they are talking to, is one of the type of people that they are rubbishing and insulting.... even the shift in my own family was very interesting to watch in the way they reacted to my sister ( disowned her ) my cousin ( spoke out against her sexuality but embraced her as part of the family ), myself ( argued about my sexuality, tried to tell me that I was wrong about my own sexuality but accepted me as a person ) my flatmate / roommate ( rubbishing gay people but respectful of him to his face ) .......

I am curious, transcendmental, if your partner said they could not deal with you as a woman or they could not deal with you being a trans person and a stranger saying the same things, would you see their reactions the same way ? personally I can see a difference between not being able to deal with you as a woman ( personal ) and a trans ( label and impersonal ) but that has more to do with the way I think.... a bit like seeing the difference between a truck / pick up and a perference between a ford / gmc etc

its part of why biradical ( she IDs as genderqueer ) talks about phobic behievour but does not really refer to any form of genderqueer phobic behievour and any non cisgender phobic behievour but does talk about trans phobia ( one of the few *accepted * forms of phobia towards people that are not cisgender and the irony, is that trans sexual / gender people can experience more than one type of trans phobia but people that are intersex / gender queer, generally dont experience direct forms of phobia regarding their sexuality or gender,.... they experience phobic behievour based around other people ( homophobia and trans phobia )

[Rose2Me]

Agreed.....to a point. We still have to interact with the outside world, and in relation to that, we are 'defined'.
You have chosen Transgender as your gender label here, for that purpose. There's little escape from it.

I hope you don't mind me picking your brains, but what does that mean? Are you female in your mind, or transgender?
If female, do you begrudgingly use the label 'transgender' due to how the outside world may view you?
If transgender, do you include your experience of physical transition to identify your mental/emotional self.....or was there a mental/emotional transition too? ---(Were you ALWAYS female mentally & emotionally?).
When would you be happy to define yourself as female?......if that's what you'd want?.....if that's what you think the outside world should just accept that as what you are?

Sorry for the headache.

Hey no problem- funny you should mention this issue. While writing my post yesterday I was going to change my "label" on this site, then noticed that there were only 3 choices- male, female, or transgender. Of those three, transgender was most appropriate. If given the choice on this site I was going to pick "other", just leave it blank, or write something witty, but that is not an option, ironically enough. I still can't truly label myself in my mind. I have strong so-called "female" tendencies, thoughts, desires, etc., but the male side of me also can't be denied nor discounted. I am who I am, and as I said, labels just don't apply.

[Gearbox]

Hey no problem- funny you should mention this issue. While writing my post yesterday I was going to change my "label" on this site, then noticed that there were only 3 choices- male, female, or transgender. Of those three, transgender was most appropriate. If given the choice on this site I was going to pick "other", just leave it blank, or write something witty, but that is not an option, ironically enough. I still can't truly label myself in my mind. I have strong so-called "female" tendencies, thoughts, desires, etc., but the male side of me also can't be denied nor discounted. I am who I am, and as I said, labels just don't apply.

Oh God, I was hoping nobody would delve into a 'what makes a male or female' ditch. But I got my foot in there, despite knowing better.
I'm not going to jump in head first coz that's far too complex for a post and I'd go on & on & on.lol

BUT.....you've now got me wondering if I could sort my own thoughts, tendencies, desires etc into boxes marked 'Masc' & 'Fem'. How would I do that?
Any minute now, I'm off to get my daughter, make her food, put the hoover on, do some ironing etc. Am not off to the woods to chop logs or slaughter chickens for dinner.lol
But I think I'm masc. Why do I think that?

I hope you're not charging for this counselling there Rose!

[transcendMental]

the issue is that while you may see yourself as a female, some guys are not going to see you that way, they may see a guy that is surgically altered to impersonate a female....

I am curious, transcendmental, if your partner said they could not deal with you as a woman or they could not deal with you being a trans person and a stranger saying the same things, would you see their reactions the same way ? personally I can see a difference between not being able to deal with you as a woman ( personal ) and a trans ( label and impersonal ) but that has more to do with the way I think.... a bit like seeing the difference between a truck / pick up and a perference between a ford / gmc etc

I understand what the issue is, Long Duck Dong, I just think it sucks. Cis-women get surgically altered in order to improve how they look or function as a woman all the time, and few people see that as a problem. Just the language of "impersonate a female" suggests transphobia to me, since it denies the fact that I'm striving for authenticity, not impersonation. I am a female; I was just born in a body that looks different from other women (aside from the brain).

About my partner, yes I see a difference. She married me when I was presenting 100% as male, and she had every right to expect a straight life with a cis-man. Yes, I told her I was female very early in our relationship, but neither of us really understood what significance that would eventually have for us. If she had decided that she really didn't want to live with someone who was physically or even just "socially" female (either because of her own sexuality or because she wasn't willing to live that sexuality openly), I could not consider that transphobia. If she had decided that putting up with the upheaval that transition caused in our lives was more than she could stand, I could not call that transphobia. It was disruptive and uncomfortable, and I couldn't blame anyone for wanting to bail out of it. It wasn't what she "signed up for".

But if I was single and X (male or female) met me, we found each other attractive, we developed feelings for one another, either as a man and woman or as two women, but on hearing that I was born male, X decides they don't want me anymore, yes I do think that's transphobic. I'm exactly the same person they met and fell in love with, inside and out. Since I'm now in a body I'm comfortable with, there's no chance I'll be changing it in uncomfortable ways. The only difference is that they know that I was born male. If X was a guy who wanted babies, ok, I assume he'd have the same issue/reaction with a woman who was infertile, so that makes sense to me. But otherwise, I have a hard time seeing it as anything but transphobia.

I find your comparison of transsexuals to criminals, drug addicts, and alcoholics, however, to be shallow and offensive. Transsexualism is not an addiction, nor is it a response to our environment or upbringing. It's a medical condition with a treatment. Once it's treated, it's pretty much resolved. Criminals, drug addicts, and alcoholics don't often resolve so completely. There are strategies they can use to help them avoid bad behaviors, but usually the underlying problem lingers. So the prejudices against these people are more rational, and hence less phobic. Not that they aren't any less worthy of love. But committing to these people involves a set of risks that not everyone should be expected to take.

[Long Duck Dong]

hugs trans..... I know what you are saying..... its something that I have seen in other peoples reactions and attitudes,.... its like some of us can take a step forward and see transcendmental as a woman, other people can only step sidewards and see you as a male or a male changing themselves to appear female.... it comes more down to the ability to relate to people as they are than as they were....

I am sorry if you read my remarks about trans and criminals as being the same, I was not trying to compare the two as the same.... but the reactions of people can be the same to us, they have seen the people we are, they accepted us for who we are, because they do not know the past..... and tell them the past, its like they suddenly do not really know us, we are different people and so its something that we can not escape from without not revealing who we once were.....

its like you say, they realise that you were born a male and they decide that they do not want to be in a relationship with somebody who was born a male.... but that was you once, you are a woman, the person they are attracted to.....and I dare say, a more balanced and settled person than in the past..... and to be honest, I am not sure if its transphobia ( issues with a woman born as a male ) or homophobia ( seeing you as a gay male ) or if its personal issues in the person themselves,... without talking with them, I could not really say.... I know a few people that are very trans friendly but openly admit that they would not do well in a relationship with a trans person because they can not connect to them as a partner but connect very well as friends......

[transcendMental]

honestly a lot of people find it hard to connect to a person that has * changed * in their eyes.....and by that I mean that they can fall in love with us as a person, but when they find out that we are ex criminals, ex drug addicts, ex alcoholics, their attraction to us can change.. and that behievour is not considered to be phobic.....

Heard a story on National Public Radio yesterday that I think makes a much better and inoffensive comparison.

Woman got caught in the Boston Marathon bombing last year. Woke up and her foot was in great pain. Was told she would never regain use of her foot, it would never heal, the pain would never go away, and she would be confined to a wheelchair for life. Her alternative was to have the foot amputated. The pain would be gone and with a prosthetic foot she could walk again, even run. She said that as it was presented to her, there really was no choice. She worried about how she would look, but was pleased with the outcome, as today's prosthetics look almost as good as the real thing.

I'm thinking yeah, a "choice" of life in perpetual misery and disfunctionality or have surgery that leaves you differently abled, but abled. Sounds familiar. I'm thinking worry about how you'll look, but being pleased with the outcome, yeah, that's familiar too. I'm thinking of course if she meets someone she'd want/have to tell them about this before things go too far. I know I couldn't pop my leg off casually in the bedroom and just expect the other person to shrug it off. And I'm thinking that some people would hear that she's missing a leg and decide that they can't/won't deal with that. And yes, if she's gotten to the point where she is at peace with her new existence, then I think such a person is a phobic dickhead. We don't have a word in our language for disabled-phobia, but we need one. And this woman isn't disabled any more than I am trans. She was disabled and is now re-abled. I was in a body of the wrong sex and now am not. Basically re-abled.

I do like your question about whether it is transphobia or homophobia, though. It's definitely phobia (in the gender and sexuality sense anyway). It can be either or both. I guess it's probably most often homophobia coupled with ignorance of what transsexualism actually is. But especially with all the information out there (in the media, on the web, etc.) these days about transsexualism, I have to consider that ignorance on the level of considering me a gay man comes from an aversion to absorbing information about transsexualism, which amounts to a level of transphobia.