Religious Circumcision

[jem_is_bi]

If you can cut a child's hair, pierce their ear, clip their nails, get a wart removed, give them inoculations, the list goes on and on........ see my point. You are passing judgement on others about your own beliefs. Kinda hypocritical in my opinion, on a site dedicated to open mindedness. Their have been countless studies done, on both views, and the simple fact is, at the end of the studies you have never heard anyone say, "He became an murderer from the trauma he suffered from circumcision at 15 months old." ROFL

There is no way that they will see your point of view. They know they are right and you are evil for promoting your viewpoint. There is not much understanding that what is right for others has any moral merit. This thread is creepy for all the hatred that is infused in it.

[void()]

As I said about 200 posts ago, it would be as noncontroversial as pierced ears but for the fact that in Western countries, people associate circumcision with Jews, and in recent years with Moslems. Anti-circumcision fanatics don't care a damn about the infants. It's about racism.

So, you are suggesting that ideas are a race? This is what it sounds like you are saying to me.

"Ideas, like religion or political notions are races."

So, then are inanimate and non-sentient objects races as well? I would think cinder blocks would disprove of being so used, if so.

Please hm, comprehend, I am not attempting to attack you but rather the idea that ideas are races. This does not quite make sense to me. If I am ignorant of something in this case please do elucidate me.

To me Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhists, Atheist, are all members of the family of the human race. They all are human beings with different ideas about the divine, or lack of the divine. But, these ideas are thoughts, emotions, perceptions. They are inanimate and non-sentient objects we discuss, we use as reason to war, reason to love. They are not a living race as far as I am aware.

If so, when did this change? Who justified such a change? What gave them the authority to change things around?

Apologies if this seems to be someone groping in the darkness, or "benighted", perhaps if we had standardized language and definitions communication would be more concise, effective. As it is the onus is on you to provide further context. I am merely asking for that. Are you saying ideas are a race? When did this happen?

Now, I could understand if I called you a zebra with an elephant trunk, you being offended and saying I uttered a racial slur at you. But I did not call you any such thing, merely presented it just now as an example. I won't call you any such thing either. It may offend duck billed platypuses and if they get offended, watch out, the beer vanishes as does the scotch and rum.

So far as I recall in this thread, I have not stood as an anti- anything fanatic. I do think there are pros and cons to both sides of the issue. I think folks ought to be free to weigh these for themselves and make their own choice. I think it would be a nice gesture to allow children a choice, though I can understand the weight of parental choice as well.

What really bothers me is now thinking of ideas as being a race unto themselves. Man, I better watch out ... some of my ideas get folks hurt. But then, I would not be responsible. See, my idea which took its own life, took its own choice to do whatever inflicted harm. Lock up my idea, it did it. That's kind of weird to ponder, although I guess if we can have straw men, anything is possible.

[pole_smoker]

As I said about 200 posts ago, it would be as noncontroversial as pierced ears but for the fact that in Western countries, people associate circumcision with Jews, and in recent years with Moslems. Anti-circumcision fanatics don't care a damn about the infants. It's about racism.

Being Jewish or Muslim is not a race. It's someone's personal religious choice. Hitler claimed that being Jewish was an actual 'race' so this means you agree with Adolph Hitler and all of the Nazis if you think that being Jewish or Islamic is a race, or that being against male and female genital mutilation is racist.

There are a lot of Jews and even Muslims who are against circumcision and do not practice it as they see it for what it is: Genital mutilation. In Europe most Jews do not mutilate the genitals of their infant children, it's not always done in Israel, and in North America many Jews are not choosing to mutilate their infant children's genitals.

[pole_smoker]

If you can cut a child's hair, pierce their ear, clip their nails, get a wart removed, give them inoculations, the list goes on and on........ see my point. You are passing judgement on others about your own beliefs. Kinda hypocritical in my opinion, on a site dedicated to open mindedness. Their have been countless studies done, on both views, and the simple fact is, at the end of the studies you have never heard anyone say, "He became an murderer from the trauma he suffered from circumcision at 15 months old." ROFL

Painfully mutilating someone's genitals without his or her consent does not compare to any of the things you listed. Circumcision is so painful that the infant boys or young boys go into shock from having it done. It also makes a man's penis ugly with gross scars.

The head of the penis just like a woman's clit was never meant to be permanently exposed, that's not how the penis was designed my nature. The head of the penis is mucus membrane, just like the inside of your mouth. The skin is very rich in nerves and sensitive, which is why it needs to be covered. If the foreskin is gone the body will make up for that. The head of the penis will start developing layers of skin over the head of the penis, this protects the mucus membrane and the nerve endings. However the unfortunate thing about this is those skin layers can't be retracted like the foreskin, so sensitivity to the head will be blocked at all times. Which aids in the sensitivity loss.

Studies have shown that the younger a circumcision is preformed in childhood, the more nerve endings that are taken and the more nerve damage that was done. They did a study on how circumcision effects sexual dysfunction in males and determined that those circumcised as infants had a much greater risk of sexual dysfunction and had more sensitivity loss, than those circumcised as adults. But overall circumcision did remove a significant amount of sensitivity and did increase the chances of ever getting a sexual dysfunction. Is it any wonder why lots of men in the United States who are cut pop Viagara and Cialis like candy? It's not just older men who do this either.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102

The analysis sample consisted of 1059 uncircumcised and 310 circumcised men. For the glans penis, circumcised men reported decreased sexual pleasure and lower orgasm intensity. They also stated more effort was required to achieve orgasm, and a higher percentage of them experienced unusual sensations (burning, prickling, itching, or tingling and numbness of the glans penis). For the penile shaft a higher percentage of circumcised men described discomfort and pain, numbness and unusual sensations. In comparison to men circumcised before puberty, men circumcised during adolescence or later indicated less sexual pleasure at the glans penis, and a higher percentage of them reported discomfort or pain and unusual sensations at the penile shaft.

[pole_smoker]

When a baby boy's normal, healthy penis is circumcised, this is what is lost - forever:

1. The foreskin, which comprises up to 50% (sometimes more) of the mobile skin system of the penis. This highly specialized tissue normally covers the glans and protects it from abrasion, drying, callousing (keratinisation), and contaminants of all kinds. The effect of glans keratinisation produces painful intercourse in both women and men who have partners who are circumcised. 2. The frenar band of soft ridges - the primary erogenous zone of the male body. Loss of this delicate belt of densely innervated, sexually responsive tissue reduces the fine-tuning of male sexual response. 3. The foreskin's "gliding action" - the hallmark mechanical feature of the intact penis. This non-abrasive gliding of the penis in and out of itself within the vagina facilitates smooth, comfortable, pleasurable intercourse for both partners. Without this gliding, sealing action, the shaft of the circumcised penis functions as a leaky piston, drawing vaginal lubricants out into the drying air and often making artificial lubricants essential for comfortable intercourse. 4. Thousands of coiled fine-touch mechanoreceptors called Meissner's corpuscles, the most important sensory component of the foreskin, encapsulated Vater-Pacinian cells, Merkel's cells, nociceptors, and branches of the dorsal nerve and perineal nerve. Altogether, between 10,000 and 20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings of several types, which can feel slight motion and stretch, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations in texture, are lost. 5. The frenulum, the highly erogenous web-like tethering structure on the underside of the glans; frequently amputated along with the foreskin, which destroys its function and potential for pleasure. 6. Approximately half of the temperature-sensitive smooth muscle sheath called the dartos fascia. 7. The immunological defense system of the soft mucosa. This produces both plasma cells that secrete immunoglobulin antibodies and antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as the pathogen-killing enzyme lysozyme. 8. Estrogen receptors - the purpose of which is not yet fully understood and needs further study. 9. The apocrine glands of the inner foreskin, which produce pheromones - nature's powerful, silent, invisible behavioral signals to potential sexual partners. The effect of their absence on human sexuality has never been studied. 10. Specialized epithelial Langerhans cells, a first line component of the body's immune system in a whole penis. 11. The pink to red to dark purple natural coloration of the glans. The connective tissue which protectively fuses the foreskin and glans together while the penis develops is ripped apart during circumcision, wounding the glans and the foreskin remnant, leaving them raw and subject to infection, scarring, pitting, shrinkage, and eventual discoloration. 12. Some of the penis length and penis circumference because its double-layered wrapping of loose and usually overhanging foreskin is now missing, making the circumcised penis truncated and thinner than a full-sized penis. 13. Several feet of blood vessels, including the frenular artery and branches of the dorsal artery. The loss of this rich vascularization interrupts normal blood flow to the shaft and glans of the penis, damaging the natural function of the penis and altering its development. [The superior dorsal artery is invariably swollen in the erect circumcised penis, compared to the intact.] 14. The penis: every year some boys lose their entire penises from circumcision accidents and infections. They are then "sexually reassigned" by castration and "transgender surgery," and expected to live their lives as "females." 15. Life: every year some boys lose their lives from the complications of circumcision - the exact number is unknown, since these deaths are usually attributed to their secondary causes, infection or bleeding. 16. Bonding: the extreme pain of circumcision (or the effects of anaesthesia) disrupt the infant's bonding with his mother, with unknown effects on his future psychological and psychosocial development. 17. Intimacy: the removal of a large area of mucous membrane, the foreskin, and the hardening of another, the glans, reduces the potential for intimacy conferred by these tissues - as it is conferred by highly comparable structures, the lips. 18. Length and Circumference Circumcision removes some of the length and girth of the penis - its double-layered wrapping of loose and usually overhanging foreskin is removed. A circumcised penis is truncated and thinner than it would have been if left intact.

[Annika L]

Allow me to officially dub this as The Accursed Thread.

I would plead with Drew to close it, but I think he finds it too useful for spotting and deleting trolls. I suppose it's like any other source of Evil...if you shut it down, another would just spring up. Funny old Universe.

[Gearbox]

OMG Darkeyes is the root of all evil. I bet her laptop is made out of Human skin....foreskin! It all makes sense now, that cunning vixen!

C'mon! Lets hunt that Frannystein down! I'll take the local picnick area....I betcha anything she'll be there!

[Annika L]

OMG Darkeyes is the root of all evil. I bet her laptop is made out of Human skin....foreskin! It all makes sense now, that cunning vixen!

C'mon! Lets hunt that Frannystein down! I'll take the local picnick area....I betcha anything she'll be there!

LOL, Fran as a source of evil is indeed laughable! I suppose the question of how someone so angelic (*huge smile*) could start a thread that is a source of evil will launch yet another one of those inevitable theological debates.

[JUSTLUVIN]

If you can cut a child's hair, pierce their ear, clip their nails, get a wart removed, give them inoculations, the list goes on and on........ see my point. You are passing judgement on others about your own beliefs. Kinda hypocritical in my opinion, on a site dedicated to open mindedness. Their have been countless studies done, on both views, and the simple fact is, at the end of the studies you have never heard anyone say, "He became an murderer from the trauma he suffered from circumcision at 15 months old." ROFL

One cannot compare circumcision to cutting nails, hair or earrings. And circumcision has been proven to alter the brain wave patterns of infants. MRI studies have been done that prove that significant trauma was doen to a newborn's brain during this procedure that permanently altered the brain. As adult men we like to claim we were not harmed but you have no reference point to go from since this was done at an early age.

Although I have never really talked about it. When I was a baby, I was circumcised. Not for religious reasons but back in the 50's it was the thing to do. My dad was not circumcised. I do not remember the excat event but I DO remember the pain I went through before I was out of diapers. Back then cloth diapers were used and I do remember using my knees as a cushion when my mom would pick me up due to the pain. I had to take baths in plain water cause the tip of my penis was so inflamed and irritated from the soap, well it was just awful.

In my late 40's the sensitivity in my glans had all but disappeared. I blamed it on age. I cut basically thump it with my fingers and feel nothing hardly at all. I since started restoring and my glans started to peel its old callous layer of dead skin and my glans started to look bright red and glossy again, after 40 something years. But the BIGGEST thing was that my penis started getting sensations it had not had in some 20 years. I am really understanding more and more the purpose of the foreskin.

I am not saying anything about religious purposes but I can say from my perspective that I was damaged.

The study can be found here: http://www.drmomma.org/2009/10/mri-s...y-altered.html

[darkeyes]

Well Annika, me l8 Gran used to call me devil's child and devil's spawn b4 she ended up bossin' downstairs and doin' ole Nick out of job.. so ya nev kno... Been called worse.... used 2 wear names like that as medals.. spesh outa the ole witch...

[darkeyes]

OMG Darkeyes is the root of all evil. I bet her laptop is made out of Human skin....foreskin! It all makes sense now, that cunning vixen!

C'mon! Lets hunt that Frannystein down! I'll take the local picnick area....I betcha anything she'll be there!

Nope.. just placcie like evry1 elses.... but am fond of picnicspots... many nice times in picnic spots... involving human skin.. an stuff.... and boys?? In days wen I wos in2 guys.. MORE FUN WOS HAD AT PICNIC SPOTS WIV GUYS WHO HAD 4SKINS THAN DIDNT!!... gut any who wants to have it lopped off can dop so.. just dont b so evil as 2 decide it for ur children b4 they r old enuff to walk... or talk...

[Annika L]

Well Annika, me l8 Gran used to call me devil's child and devil's spawn b4 she ended up bossin' downstairs and doin' ole Nick out of job.. so ya nev kno... Been called worse.... used 2 wear names like that as medals.. spesh outa the ole witch...

Source of evil and spawn of evil are quite two different things, dear! And be careful what you say about old Witches around me *wink*.

[darkeyes]

Source of evil and spawn of evil are quite two different things, dear! And be careful what you say about old Witches around me *wink*.

Some witches wer luffly, Annika.... not all wer like me gran tf... an' not all r for that matta...

[pole_smoker]

One cannot compare circumcision to cutting nails, hair or earrings. And circumcision has been proven to alter the brain wave patterns of infants. MRI studies have been done that prove that significant trauma was doen to a newborn's brain during this procedure that permanently altered the brain. As adult men we like to claim we were not harmed but you have no reference point to go from since this was done at an early age.

Although I have never really talked about it. When I was a baby, I was circumcised. Not for religious reasons but back in the 50's it was the thing to do. My dad was not circumcised. I do not remember the excat event but I DO remember the pain I went through before I was out of diapers. Back then cloth diapers were used and I do remember using my knees as a cushion when my mom would pick me up due to the pain. I had to take baths in plain water cause the tip of my penis was so inflamed and irritated from the soap, well it was just awful.

In my late 40's the sensitivity in my glans had all but disappeared. I blamed it on age. I cut basically thump it with my fingers and feel nothing hardly at all. I since started restoring and my glans started to peel its old callous layer of dead skin and my glans started to look bright red and glossy again, after 40 something years. But the BIGGEST thing was that my penis started getting sensations it had not had in some 20 years. I am really understanding more and more the purpose of the foreskin.

I am not saying anything about religious purposes but I can say from my perspective that I was damaged.

The study can be found here: http://www.drmomma.org/2009/10/mri-s...y-altered.html

Well said. Circumcision of the penis is a genital mutilation.

A penis that's intact with a foreskin that's never been mutilated or 'cut' is more sensitive, and it gives the man and his female, and male sexual partners more sexual pleasure than if he's mutilated or cut.

Some men have done what's called 'foreskin restoration' it does not give them an actual foreskin with all of the unmutilated nerve endings; but it does cover the head, make the penis less dry, and does increase some sexual sensitivity and pleasure that's been lost.

[JUSTLUVIN]

Well said. Circumcision of the penis is a genital mutilation.

A penis that's intact with a foreskin that's never been mutilated or 'cut' is more sensitive, and it gives the man and his female, and male sexual partners more sexual pleasure than if he's mutilated or cut.

Some men have done what's called 'foreskin restoration' it does not give them an actual foreskin with all of the unmutilated nerve endings; but it does cover the head, make the penis less dry, and does increase some sexual sensitivity and pleasure that's been lost.

So true pole_smoker. Unfortunately I lost the thousands of nerve endings in the foreskin that was cut off that I will never be able to experience, Only a truly uncut man will know. However, I am quite surprised that since my glans has been covered 24/ 7. I can actually feel it again. And what's more, I can actually just touch my glans and get an erection. Back some 5 years ago, it took more than that to get me hard. Plus the color has changed and looks healthy again.

I have been on doctors visits and they assumed I was intact and gave me the lectures on cleanliness. I never told them hehe.

[elian]

Yes, it does happen - yes, it's sort of sad. Just like baptism, I would much rather that a child be given a chance to make the decision on their own when they are in their late teens and can start to understand some of the concepts they are being asked to swear to.

Would I fault a parent for doing so? I don't fault MY parents for doing so, even though I sometimes wonder what it might be like to be uncut. I am not a parent myself so I am not going to speak for other parents.

At least I am in good company here in the US..besides, it gives us something to lust after - finding that guy with the uncut penis..

I -have- seen a few examples of honest mutilation (more so than what some of you think of as "mutilation") - where the surgery goes wrong, and in that case I think I would be very unhappy with the doctor.

I mean as late as the 1950's I think they were still pushing this surgery on moral grounds..

As far as the morality of it all, if you say no, you will probably get accused of promoting immorality. Yes sometimes I really do get tired of a sex laden culture. I am sorry, in my mind there is no 14 year old girl who needs to wear a pair of cut off petite denim shorts that have the word JU-ICY stenciled across the butt-cheeks in glitter.

The cultural epoch of US society, the thing that unites us more than anything else is apparently Bruno Mars singing "Locked out of Heaeven" during the superbowl half time show with thousands of pre-pubecent teens waving their cell phones in the air like cigarette lighters and bopping along to the music.

I don't necessarily think that there is anything wrong with sex or feeling pleasure but those are very powerful feelings and emotions that young people may not fully understand the implications of.

Gawd, now I -know- I've become a grumpy old man...

-E

[pole_smoker]

Yes, it does happen - yes, it's sort of sad. Just like baptism, I would much rather that a child be given a chance to make the decision on their own when they are in their late teens and can start to understand some of the concepts they are being asked to swear to.

Would I fault a parent for doing so? I don't fault MY parents for doing so, even though I sometimes wonder what it might be like to be uncut. I am not a parent myself so I am not going to speak for other parents.

At least I am in good company here in the US..besides, it gives us something to lust after - finding that guy with the uncut penis..

I -have- seen a few examples of honest mutilation (more so than what some of you think of as "mutilation" - where the surgery goes wrong, and in that case I think I would be very unhappy with the doctor.

I mean as late as the 1950's I think they were still pushing this surgery on moral grounds..

As far as the morality of it all, yes sometimes I really do get tired of a sex laden culture. I am sorry, in my mind there is no 14 year old girl who needs to wear a pair of cut off petite denim shorts that have the word JU-ICY stenciled across the butt-cheeks in glitter.

The cultural epoch of US society, the thing that unites us more than anything else is apparently Bruno Mars singing "Locked out of Heaeven" during the superbowl half time show with thousands of pre-pubecent teens waving their cell phones like cigarette lighters and bopping along to the music.

Gawd, now I -know- I've become a grumpy old man...
-E

All circumcisions preformed on infants or young boys are mutilations as they cannot consent to it, or are pressured because of silly religious rituals that support genital mutilation. The same goes for female 'circumcision'.

Eventually infant male and female genital mutilation will become illegal worldwide, or will simply die off as a practice.

I'm not cut and I have met a lot of men who are cut who are angry or jealous that they were not given the choice, and had they been given a choice they would have kept their genitals intact with a foreskin. But it's happening to less and less boys in the United States, and worldwide most men are not cut/mutilated, and they and their sexual partners have no consequences from this.

Cut men who obsess over foreskin, or who want me sexually mainly because I'm intact are the type I avoid.

[elian]

I have met a lot of men who are cut who are angry or jealous that they were not given the choice, and had they been given a choice they would have kept their genitals intact with a foreskin. But it's happening to less and less boys in the United States, and worldwide most men are not cut/mutilated, and they and their sexual partners have no consequences from this.

Yes, well there was a time I was jealous or angry over the fact that I am cut, but I got over it - just like the million other things in my life I got angry or jealous over. If the practice is happening less and less in the US you won't hear me complain.

I do have to wonder if the boys who ARE cut will feel more of a disparity when they see that more and more people are not.

I'm not a big fan of female circumcision either..

I look at it this way, I didn't ask to be born male, I didn't ask to be born white, or bisexual, being circumsized is just one more adversity to face in life and it really isn't a big one. I don't always think of adversity as a bad thing..if there was never any disagreement or contrast then life would be boring, there would no reason to change and grow.