For those wondeing what biphobia is and what it looks like

[darkeyes]

I have always considered ourselves far more than our sexuality, Duckie.. and in the last few years, even more so.. folk are folk and that's how I treat them and as an adult at least is how I have always treated them.. our sexuality is important, and we seek those of our own sexuality out for purpose of love, marriage, sex..life companionship.. but our sexuality is a small part of our whole being.. we are much more than, str8, or gay, or bi or trans..

I have on a number of occasions in forums stated that I dream of the day when we just are.. and are allowed to be, and where sexuality is no more thought of than the colour of our eyes or what our hobbies are.. being human and living life where we and others don't give a bugger about the sexuality of others.. I don't now.. they are who they are.. human beings.. the same as me but different with their own characteristics and personality...and so like, tenni, I too like the picture painted, and have all of my adult life and, if not always before, it was at a young age I began to think such things and work them through...

[æonpax]

lol I agree with you there...lol.... being human is the norm.... and personally, as far as I can concerned, there is no sexuality * norm*.... just a image / list of *criteria * that people can use to define the sexuality of others and what * looks good * or how they expect others to live and think..... but its often what people will use in order to say who * fits the criteria * and who doesn't

I often wonder if a society like there is in the children of the earth books, is actually the way that society should be...... its set in the caveman days, but in the last book, jean auel wrote, there was a couple of gay males ( married ) that were openly accepted as part of the community and indeed one of the gay males was seen as * one who serves the mother * ( a type of healer / priest / wise person )... and all through the books, multiple partners / companionship and the right to marry more than one person, were seen as normal... one marriage was a female with two husbands....

honestly, I think its cos there is so many people in the world and a real loss of the community spirit, that we have ended up with a world that is so full of seperation, division and obsessed with power and control over who can have a opinion, rights and freedom of choice.....

`
If wishes were horses….In a utopian world where flawless humans have achieved sublime perfection, I absolutely agree with you…but alas, such is not the case nor do I suspect, it ever will be. It’s not that we shouldn’t strive for such perfection, but to expect that in others is a major leap. In any group or community, the first signs of discord and disharmony always come from within, and so it is the same here. It’s the ‘human condition.’

******

Interesting. The series of books you mentioned, Earth's Children, (written by the same author as “The Clan of the Cave Bear”- Jean M. Auel) chooses a female, Ayla, as it’s fulcrum. She acts as an innovator, inventor, visionary and perhaps, the “Magna Mater” of all that is yet to be. The very fact a woman such as this, even exists, is not well received (to say the least) amongst the more androcentric minded of the clans and humanoid species.

[darkeyes]

`
If wishes were horses….In a utopian world where flawless humans have achieved sublime perfection, I absolutely agree with you…but alas, such is not the case nor do I suspect, it ever will be. It’s not that we shouldn’t strive for such perfection, but to expect that in others is a major leap. In any group or community, the first signs of discord and disharmony always come from within, and so it is the same here. It’s the ‘human condition.’

******

Interesting. The series of books you mentioned, Earth's Children, (written by the same author as “The Clan of the Cave Bear”- Jean M. Auel) chooses a female, Ayla, as it’s fulcrum. She acts as an innovator, inventor, visionary and perhaps, the “Magna Mater” of all that is yet to be. The very fact a woman such as this, even exists, is not well received (to say the least) amongst the more androcentric minded of the clans and humanoid species.

I know ur not knocking it Joan, but there is nothing at all wrong with the dream, and a half hearted endorsement is almost a knock.. it limits our aspiration by subconsciously limiting our vision of what can be...I may not live under the illusion that perfection or Utopia will ever be achieved, but I live my life as if it will, and do my little bit to enable humanity to get as close to that Utopia as it is possible to do.. to do other, and to ever claim something is unachievable is not in my nature, and one thing I don't believe is unachievable is a world where we are and are allowed to be and where our fellow human beings don't give a sod and about the fact that we are of a different sexuality, colour, religion or creed.. I don't believe for a moment that we need a Utopia for human beings to learn to live together, understand and accept difference.. and if I may say so, where in real life, one such as Ayla can exist, be accepted and no one will blink an eye...

I am not deluded, but nor do I see the limits of human aspiration and achievement.. indeed over future millenia, if we survive and do not exterminate ouselves, I don't think there are any.. at least not until the cosmos itself has decided it is done with us...

[æonpax]

I know ur not knocking it Joan, but there is nothing at all wrong with the dream, and a half hearted endorsement is almost a knock.. it limits our aspiration by subconsciously limiting our vision of what can be...I may not live under the illusion that perfection or Utopia will ever be achieved, but I live my life as if it will, and do my little bit to enable humanity to get as close to that Utopia as it is possible to do.. to do other, and to ever claim something is unachievable is not in my nature, and one thing I don't believe is unachievable is a world where we are and are allowed to be and where our fellow human beings don't give a sod and about the fact that we are of a different sexuality, colour, religion or creed.. I don't believe for a moment that we need a Utopia for human beings to learn to live together, understand and accept difference.. and if I may say so, where in real life, one such as Ayla can exist, be accepted and no one will blink an eye...

I am not deluded, but nor do I see the limits of human aspiration and achievement.. indeed over future millenia, if we survive and do not exterminate ouselves, I don't think there are any.. at least not until the cosmos itself has decided it is done with us...

`

You have your way of looking at life, I have my way. Both are legitimate and one, no better or worse, than the other.

[darkeyes]

`

You have your way of looking at life, I have my way. Both are legitimate and one, no better or worse, than the other.

Both are as valid as the other.. whether no better or worse, there I can take issue.. purely subjective judgement of course, but it is my judgement..

[void()]

Ok, I backed up in the thread & I think I found what you meant, but " ...might be getting it after all?" I've got 20 years of hard-living experiences over you, buddy. Can you give me some credit for having attained some insight into people?

*LOL* Me give you credit? *LOL* Someone must have a bank of void sign up again. Darn jokers.

I actually had given you that upon first seeing you. Somehow everything derailed terribly. It was probably interference from the Zotors, they're a race living over in the next universe. I often vanish from this universe for brief periods, journeys with the Zotors explains those absences. We traverse round several other universes on general research missions. Never eat something called a Wanigy Flipo Drapple. The Wanigy beileve in injecting tarpis syrup in all drapples, tastes like yamiyami dung.

The interference is probably due to a short in a gijico, one means the Zotors use to communicate. A short in one can tear the very fabric of various realities into shreds, and weave them together simultaneously. This is not always a bad thing either. For example, Tekito Gze has a collection of fine alternate reality tapestries on sale at a shop on the planet Nigal. Take your dluops (the equivalent of gills), because Nigal is purely a water based planet.

[elian]

`
If wishes were horses….In a utopian world where flawless humans have achieved sublime perfection, I absolutely agree with you…but alas, such is not the case nor do I suspect, it ever will be. It’s not that we shouldn’t strive for such perfection, but to expect that in others is a major leap. In any group or community, the first signs of discord and disharmony always come from within, and so it is the same here. It’s the ‘human condition.’

I will grant that perfection maybe should not be the ultimate goal, but If humans knew where they really came from there would be no discord.

[pepperjack]

*LOL* Me give you credit? *LOL* Someone must have a bank of void sign up again. Darn jokers.

I actually had given you that upon first seeing you. Somehow everything derailed terribly. It was probably interference from the Zotors, they're a race living over in the next universe. I often vanish from this universe for brief periods, journeys with the Zotors explains those absences. We traverse round several other universes on general research missions. Never eat something called a Wanigy Flipo Drapple. The Wanigy beileve in injecting tarpis syrup in all drapples, tastes like yamiyami dung.

The interference is probably due to a short in a gijico, one means the Zotors use to communicate. A short in one can tear the very fabric of various realities into shreds, and weave them together simultaneously. This is not always a bad thing either. For example, Tekito Gze has a collection of fine alternate reality tapestries on sale at a shop on the planet Nigal. Take your dluops (the equivalent of gills), because Nigal is purely a water based planet.

And to think you were so defensive and indignant awhile back when I used the word convoluted regarding your style of posting. Also interesting to note is that just before logging on here,I was watching a news report about fraudulent disability claims. Summary of the report concluded 72% fall into that category. Much more interesting food for thought than meditating upon spam.

[pepperjack]

I will grant that perfection maybe should not be the ultimate goal, but If humans knew where they really came from there would be no discord.

This post is simultaneously cryptic, provocative & coincidental to me. I'm hopefully planning to see the current sci-fi blockbuster Prometheus ( in 3D ),sometime this week. I read a very favorable review of the film which stated it raises challenging questions about the origins of human life. Also, are you privy to some special insight that would compel you to make such a post?

[void()]

And to think you were so defensive and indignant awhile back when I used the word convoluted regarding your style of posting. Also interesting to note is that just before logging on here,I was watching a news report about fraudulent disability claims. Summary of the report concluded 72% fall into that category. Much more interesting food for thought than meditating upon spam.

Void sighs, shakes his noggin and grins, sighs again and wanders on.

[elian]

Did you all notice the part about "no discord" or are you going to continue to take jabs at each other?

Pepper, I am sorry to hear you say that void's disability claim is fraudulent, if you really knew the man then you would know. Yes, there are people that milk the system but at least I think he's made an honest effort to try and make it work, several times. He would actually make a really good HVAC tech, but have you ever tried doing that job without a sense of smell?

I wish you both love and happiness.

[Gearbox]

honestly, I think its cos there is so many people in the world and a real loss of the community spirit, that we have ended up with a world that is so full of seperation, division and obsessed with power and control over who can have a opinion, rights and freedom of choice.....

That's probably right. You put any 2 Humans together and you get a command structure. Look at relationships!lol
And the higher the number, the more authoritarian we get. Can't have us all living in chaos can we? IMO if there's no threat of chaos, we create it, just so we can try to invoke order.
I see that with myself and my little girl often. I give her rules, and she points out when certain rules only take away her freedom/independance and have no real use other than that. And I have to agree! But I still crave order so I feel 'useful'.lol

[elian]

Bi people are going to keep being bi - no matter how much people want to discredit those feelings - thank goodness for that. It's a good lesson to learn - that you can love anyone ..

[void()]

And to think you were so defensive and indignant awhile back when I used the word convoluted regarding your style of posting. Also interesting to note is that just before logging on here,I was watching a news report about fraudulent disability claims. Summary of the report concluded 72% fall into that category. Much more interesting food for thought than meditating upon spam.

My apologies for not replying directly, clearly earlier. A respite in
order to ensure a well thought response was needed. Frankly, I can see
even a well thought response would not matter much in this case. I'll
maintain reticence per regards you from now on. That may perhaps be
the best diplomatic course.

[void()]

Did you all notice the part about "no discord" or are you going to continue to take jabs at each other?

Pepper, I am sorry to hear you say that void's disability claim is fraudulent, if you really knew the man then you would know. Yes, there are people that milk the system but at least I think he's made an honest effort to try and make it work, several times. He would actually make a really good HVAC tech, but have you ever tried doing that job without a sense of smell?

I wish you both love and happiness.

Unable to work at welding as well due to lacking smell. And I'm good with an oxygen & acetylene torch kit. Used to do braising well. I was good at cutting with a torch. Welding with one, I could pass x-ray testing.

Not able to work at water treatment. They use chlorine in the process, which requires you being able to smell it in case of a leak. If honest, I really should have never been allowed in a kitchen to cook either due to having no sense of spoilage as alerted via odor. Also since I do not smell, taste is quite limited. Gourmet for me is adding lots of salt, garlic or sugar.

As far as people, mental and emotional go, I am accepting that everyone has trouble with interpersonal communication. Some, like myself have really bad trouble because at times we allow emotions to gain full control. Also people like me get used to the idea of not asking for help, because of people like pepper, because of the fact that by the time we ask it could be too late. Besides everyone is already busy helping everyone else, there's never enough left over.

People like me also have difficulty relaxing. I'm sure you have noticed that over time. Sorry, I'm just wound too tight in considering others, considering me only comes to "keep in control." I'm not telling you anything you have not dealt with as well. Trust in self is something difficult to concede. We talked about forgiveness last night. Forgiving the self is difficult as well. As far as I am able to discern, I'm not alone in needing to forgive myself. Others might benefit in forgiving themselves. Others means everyone in general in this context, I am not singling anyone or any group out.

Pepper, since I know you're scrutinizing this very post of mine, I forgive you. I do not hate you. I do not love you. I am indifferent to you from now on. That is genuinely all I need or have desire that you know, all I care to express per regards you. If you want to keep slinging insults feel free. You will only be insulting yourself to continue. We just don't communicate. I'll leave it at that because it is clear, no matter how I try to accommodate communication it is given back as a slap in the face.

Please excuse me. I need to attend a few plot ideas and some household chores.

[elian]

Also, are you privy to some special insight that would compel you to make such a post?

Just a lifetime of experience, a command to follow my heart and some videos from crazy people on the internet. The fringe isn't always the best place to hang out, but it is definitely where the most interesting things happen.

In response to a poem that void sent me I got to thinking what the future might, in fact - look like - with the understanding that many people are in pain or confusion right now. People predict the end of days because they can't imagine a world beyond what they know - but I don't necessarily think it is bad or all doom. I believe in the positive power of humanity to make a difference. We have all made mistakes and having the power to forgive and let go is very, very important. Our institutions and heroes are NOT perfect, not even close..compassion is the key..otherwise you are trapped in anger, resentment, frustration - the Buddha was persistent, he cultivated a spiritual mind that was able to remain at peace.

My whole life people have told me no, you can't do that, you can't be this, you can't love who your heart loves. Sooner or later I'm going to get tired of hearing it. I get frustrated, Instead of lashing out in anger as so many others have done I have decided the best way forward is through love..to help people when I can. Divine love is the best form, to put it simply - in giving we receive - we can share in that love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfNvmF0Bqw ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4VMZb8wLY ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLltt5cPDOc ?

Need to make a choice. At the very core of the thing there is no loud screeching, no guilt, no shame, no proselytizing - just gratitude, desire, love and healing..in silence. It is available to all people.

We are not "apart" from the divine and we never were, if the Earth stopped growing vegetables tomorrow, could we save ourselves? We take so many things for granted and ignore the very essence of who we are. We must all recognize we have a part to play, when I cut down someone else out of spite I am hurting myself. To help other people is more than just being altruistic.

So when I see people write something down like that book, like it's in concrete, unchangeable I say "No!", we are not doomed. Things DO change, we are NOT "incapable" of learning to treat each other with respect and love..look at just how far we have come in same sex rights just in the last 50 years??

People are so used to being told they are inadequate that they have forgotten what it means to have real power. NEVER lose hope, because you are not alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOfhbLn8fw8

Sorry for posting off topic.

[pepperjack]

*LOL* Me give you credit? *LOL* Someone must have a bank of void sign up again. Darn jokers.

I actually had given you that upon first seeing you. Somehow everything derailed terribly. It was probably interference from the Zotors, they're a race living over in the next universe. I often vanish from this universe for brief periods, journeys with the Zotors explains those absences. We traverse round several other universes on general research missions. Never eat something called a Wanigy Flipo Drapple. The Wanigy beileve in injecting tarpis syrup in all drapples, tastes like yamiyami dung.

The interference is probably due to a short in a gijico, one means the Zotors use to communicate. A short in one can tear the very fabric of various realities into shreds, and weave them together simultaneously. This is not always a bad thing either. For example, Tekito Gze has a collection of fine alternate reality tapestries on sale at a shop on the planet Nigal. Take your dluops (the equivalent of gills), because Nigal is purely a water based planet.

Seriously, Void, this is an " attempt at accommodating communication? " There are only two sentences in here that come close to that. Am I actually expected to interpret the bulk of this inane meandering as a reply to a simple question I posed? When you said you hoped we could become friends, I somehow (and I guess wrongly) assumed we could engage in some honest & mature dialogue. My response was not intended as a slap in the face & did not involve any malice. From my perspective, it was subjective, candid, civil, constructive criticism.

[pepperjack]

Did you all notice the part about "no discord" or are you going to continue to take jabs at each other?

Pepper, I am sorry to hear you say that void's disability claim is fraudulent, if you really knew the man then you would know. Yes, there are people that milk the system but at least I think he's made an honest effort to try and make it work, several times. He would actually make a really good HVAC tech, but have you ever tried doing that job without a sense of smell?

I wish you both love and happiness.

I didn't say it, I implied it and I guess , rather obviously. But then, as the saying goes..." If the shoe fits...." In response to your question at the end , no, but I have also worked as a welder and I can't grasp why an inability to smell would be a handicap; maybe even a blessing considering how some aromas in a fab/machine shop border on the pungent. Actually, I was thinking of other tenuous excuses he had posted here to justify that course of action (an inability to deal with workplace drama, for instance) when I made that post. I just don't consider throwing in the towel at 40 an honest effort. There are too many of us out here in the workforce that employ ferocious tenacity to forge and press our way through yet another day in spite of our afflictions, pain, fatigue, depression, physical handicap...whatever. I for one,don't even plan on retiring. I'm going to keep working until I drop (which just might happen, literally) and there are many other oldsters like me emerging daily. What's one of the currently popular idioms among guys of your generation? Oh, yeah...."MAN UP!"

[pepperjack]

Unable to work at welding as well due to lacking smell. And I'm good with an oxygen & acetylene torch kit. Used to do braising well. I was good at cutting with a torch. Welding with one, I could pass x-ray testing.

Not able to work at water treatment. They use chlorine in the process, which requires you being able to smell it in case of a leak. If honest, I really should have never been allowed in a kitchen to cook either due to having no sense of spoilage as alerted via odor. Also since I do not smell, taste is quite limited. Gourmet for me is adding lots of salt, garlic or sugar.

As far as people, mental and emotional go, I am accepting that everyone has trouble with interpersonal communication. Some, like myself have really bad trouble because at times we allow emotions to gain full control. Also people like me get used to the idea of not asking for help, because of people like pepper, because of the fact that by the time we ask it could be too late. Besides everyone is already busy helping everyone else, there's never enough left over.

People like me also have difficulty relaxing. I'm sure you have noticed that over time. Sorry, I'm just wound too tight in considering others, considering me only comes to "keep in control." I'm not telling you anything you have not dealt with as well. Trust in self is something difficult to concede. We talked about forgiveness last night. Forgiving the self is difficult as well. As far as I am able to discern, I'm not alone in needing to forgive myself. Others might benefit in forgiving themselves. Others means everyone in general in this context, I am not singling anyone or any group out.

Pepper, since I know you're scrutinizing this very post of mine, I forgive you. I do not hate you. I do not love you. I am indifferent to you from now on. That is genuinely all I need or have desire that you know, all I care to express per regards you. If you want to keep slinging insults feel free. You will only be insulting yourself to continue. We just don't communicate. I'll leave it at that because it is clear, no matter how I try to accommodate communication it is given back as a slap in the face.

Please excuse me. I need to attend a few plot ideas and some household chores.

I don't hate you either Void. I don't even dislike you right now ( but I have at times, even intensely, which I know I've made obvious) but I'm having difficulty feeling respect for you on this issue. I can't help but feel you still have other options. What about the myriad opportunities for working online these days? You seem to have sufficient tech savvy to pursue that course of action.

[pepperjack]

Just a lifetime of experience, a command to follow my heart and some videos from crazy people on the internet. The fringe isn't always the best place to hang out, but it is definitely where the most interesting things happen.

In response to a poem that void sent me I got to thinking what the future might, in fact - look like - with the understanding that many people are in pain or confusion right now. People predict the end of days because they can't imagine a world beyond what they know - but I don't necessarily think it is bad or all doom. I believe in the positive power of humanity to make a difference. We have all made mistakes and having the power to forgive and let go is very, very important. Our institutions and heroes are NOT perfect, not even close..compassion is the key..otherwise you are trapped in anger, resentment, frustration - the Buddha was persistent, he cultivated a spiritual mind that was able to remain at peace.

My whole life people have told me no, you can't do that, you can't be this, you can't love who your heart loves. Sooner or later I'm going to get tired of hearing it. I get frustrated, Instead of lashing out in anger as so many others have done I have decided the best way forward is through love..to help people when I can. Divine love is the best form, to put it simply - in giving we receive - we can share in that love.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfNvmF0Bqw ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4VMZb8wLY ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLltt5cPDOc ?

Need to make a choice. At the very core of the thing there is no loud screeching, no guilt, no shame, no proselytizing - just gratitude, desire, love and healing..in silence. It is available to all people.

We are not "apart" from the divine and we never were, if the Earth stopped growing vegetables tomorrow, could we save ourselves? We take so many things for granted and ignore the very essence of who we are. We must all recognize we have a part to play, when I cut down someone else out of spite I am hurting myself. To help other people is more than just being altruistic.

So when I see people write something down like that book, like it's in concrete, unchangeable I say "No!", we are not doomed. Things DO change, we are NOT "incapable" of learning to treat each other with respect and love..look at just how far we have come in same sex rights just in the last 50 years??

People are so used to being told they are inadequate that they have forgotten what it means to have real power. NEVER lose hope, because you are not alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOfhbLn8fw8

Sorry for posting off topic.

I have among my books, one which compares the parallel teachings of Jesus & Buddha. There is a school of thought that theorizes that Jesus studied with Buddha during what is known historically as His( Jesus )missing years. One Buddhist I have personally known was Thai & came from generations of Buddhists. Anyway, after some time, I discovered she was very shallow & materialistic. This observation was confirmed to me by a very insightful person. Especially interesting & ironic to me is that I know Buddha was royalty, a prince who renounced his opulence to pursue a path of deprivation & spirituality. So much for the daily meditations she was always crowing about. Hypocrisy seems to be an inalienable human failing. Like the Muslim who stated, " I wish I had met your Christ before I met your Christian." You seemed to answer my question when stating "We are not apart from the divine and never were." This correlates with what I believe. One of my favorite scriptures in " that book" is..." Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;"(Jeremiah 1:5 ). So, in addition to believing in an afterlife, I believe in a premortal life. I was fortunate today to get my wish & view Prometheus. The premise of how human life originated in the story was old news to me. The 3D visuals were spectacular at times. Today was the longest day of the year & it was that for me and it's not over yet.

[elian]

I have among my books, one which compares the parallel teachings of Jesus & Buddha. There is a school of thought that theorizes that Jesus studied with Buddha during what is known historically as His( Jesus )missing years. One Buddhist I have personally known was Thai & came from generations of Buddhists. Anyway, after some time, I discovered she was very shallow & materialistic. This observation was confirmed to me by a very insightful person. Especially interesting & ironic to me is that I know Buddha was royalty, a prince who renounced his opulence to pursue a path of deprivation & spirituality. So much for the daily meditations she was always crowing about. Hypocrisy seems to be an inalienable human failing. Like the Muslim who stated, " I wish I had met your Christ before I met your Christian." You seemed to answer my question when stating "We are not apart from the divine and never were." This correlates with what I believe. One of my favorite scriptures in " that book" is..." Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;"(Jeremiah 1:5 ). So, in addition to believing in an afterlife, I believe in a premortal life. I was fortunate today to get my wish & view Prometheus. The premise of how human life originated in the story was old news to me. The 3D visuals were spectacular at times. Today was the longest day of the year & it was that for me and it's not over yet.

I don't know if Jesus studied WITH Buddha but I think he probably studied the same things. He brought some Eastern concepts to Western thought (or maybe he was just tired of all the hate?) When "The Purpose Driven Life" became so popular I decided to try reading a little of it because I wanted to see what people found so appealing. It basically takes Eastern Philosophy and reiterates the same concepts in Western terms. Of course there is a branch of Judaism that people don't talk about much as well; apparently SOME of the same people who put the "A" in "Abraham", who poured over the scriptures also had an unbelievably "mystical" side as well. They see God in everything.

I can't tell you that your materialistic friend is right or wrong, she is who she is - I am not here to debate one religion over another I see SOME elegance in all that I have encountered so far. Like any tool religion can be abused. I think LDD is right, we have lost our community. I'm not REALLY looking to start a war, I can only say that we are a lot more loved and we have a lot more power to change things than we give ourselves credit for.

I don't fear a few people denying that bisexuals exist, people have been denying things they don't want to believe in for a long time. But I have history, and this whole community of people who apparently know very well that it does exist - that's all the proof I need.

[void()]

Seriously, Void, this is an " attempt at accommodating communication? " There are only two sentences in here that come close to that. Am I actually expected to interpret the bulk of this inane meandering as a reply to a simple question I posed? When you said you hoped we could become friends, I somehow (and I guess wrongly) assumed we could engage in some honest & mature dialogue. My response was not intended as a slap in the face & did not involve any malice. From my perspective, it was subjective, candid, civil, constructive criticism.

It was me attempting to make light of past misunderstandings. As to 'manning up', I can tell you that I have been down that path quite a few times. Be assured I'm not merely 'giving up', rather taking an alternate route. You see, I have learned there are many ways to 'man up'. Not all involve walking around with a broken knee and not complaining. In fact it has been suggested that asking for help is a sign of 'manning up'.

Not all of us are card carrying, wife beating, real men. Not saying you are, merely expressing dissatisfaction with a widely held stereo type which obviously causes much strife. It is that same stereotype that can cause me paralysis, anxiety, frustration and worse at times. You implying less of me by appealing to the authority of it isn't really constructive criticism, subjective, candid or civil. Further, it isn't really all that mature.

You have continually inferred, implied less of me as a person each time we interact. As such I have come to view you as an obstacle. Excuse me for stepping around you. I'm tired of bashing my head into immoveable walls, I'll just go around them, now. If that requires a little more time, more relaxing, thinking, so it does. At least I can work and do something I enjoy, without brick walls in the way.

Sense of smell could effect welding in the fact of possibly doing work in tunnel, sewer, mine etc, and being unable to smell hazardous fumes. It is similar in effect to working water treatment. You don't smell the danger, die or get hurt. Employers get lawyers calling that liability, employers do not want liabilities. Of course, there are shops. I went to apply at one, guys said I needed thirty years experience. I asked if no one hired how one was to get the experience? He could not offer a reply.

So in short, I worked shit work, I worked it hard for thirty five plus or minus years. I am what is deemed unskilled manual labor as a result. Frankly, I never earned enough wage to feel competent in learning a skill, much less feeling competent in myself to manage doing both. I learned what little I know of computing via trail and error, reading a bit here and there, more trail and error as a hobby. Did have certification to code html a while back. That expired and although I have kept somewhat abreast of it, I'm no web developer by any means.

I have considered computing as a field. I may even do some odd jobs in computing. But I enjoy having an end product. To that end I am planning on doing a bit of wood working as a hobby. If I make a few bucks off of that, great. But I'm not going to be doing it for making money. I have a couple of nephews whom are facing some rough stuff. Me picking up wood working can provide some quality time for helping them. Besides, I like making birdhouses, benches and generally useful things.

My rules though are simple. The wood working for me is a hobby. I can visibly see improvement in my own skill with it. I do not need, want a boss. I can see and know good quality work, in the wood work as well as being a good teacher and guide for nephews. if you see somebody taking a different path as giving up or being less, well, if I was not indifferent to you, pity might be a response. I learned long ago pity gets a person nowhere. As far as I can recall, I have not asked for pity here.

I have expressed things are what they are. I have expressed disillusionment with everything in general. I have expressed acceptance of it all. Yes, there is a difference in accepting and surrender. I do not surrender. Been on that road as well, not going back. I have expressed disliking things as they are, despite accepting them. Have even admitted to having my share of responsibility in a portion of things. Who is dumber, the guy who can finish a project with help but doesn't ask, or the one who tackles it alone and fails? For a long time I have been rather dumb, proud, stubborn ... 'manned up'.

I have grown and gotten wiser, more aware, more easily exhausted and ache filled too. I have come to know myself better. That knowledge suggests it is dumber to keep playing the big proud man. So, I take a different path. I go around walls, instead of beating myself up trying to go through them. To me, you're a wall, all of you have the same back and fronts, and you all look the same. Guess that also comes back to what folks told me regarding work. "It's nothing personal." I used my work at times to help an ailing mother, to feed a family, to pay for a brother's care. No, nothing personal at all. And it's nothing personal with you.

Excuse me, need to attend some chores.

[pepperjack]

It was me attempting to make light of past misunderstandings. As to 'manning up', I can tell you that I have been down that path quite a few times. Be assured I'm not merely 'giving up', rather taking an alternate route. You see, I have learned there are many ways to 'man up'. Not all involve walking around with a broken knee and not complaining. In fact it has been suggested that asking for help is a sign of 'manning up'.

Not all of us are card carrying, wife beating, real men. Not saying you are, merely expressing dissatisfaction with a widely held stereo type which obviously causes much strife. It is that same stereotype that can cause me paralysis, anxiety, frustration and worse at times. You implying less of me by appealing to the authority of it isn't really constructive criticism, subjective, candid or civil. Further, it isn't really all that mature.

You have continually inferred, implied less of me as a person each time we interact. As such I have come to view you as an obstacle. Excuse me for stepping around you. I'm tired of bashing my head into immoveable walls, I'll just go around them, now. If that requires a little more time, more relaxing, thinking, so it does. At least I can work and do something I enjoy, without brick walls in the way.

Sense of smell could effect welding in the fact of possibly doing work in tunnel, sewer, mine etc, and being unable to smell hazardous fumes. It is similar in effect to working water treatment. You don't smell the danger, die or get hurt. Employers get lawyers calling that liability, employers do not want liabilities. Of course, there are shops. I went to apply at one, guys said I needed thirty years experience. I asked if no one hired how one was to get the experience? He could not offer a reply.

So in short, I worked shit work, I worked it hard for thirty five plus or minus years. I am what is deemed unskilled manual labor as a result. Frankly, I never earned enough wage to feel competent in learning a skill, much less feeling competent in myself to manage doing both. I learned what little I know of computing via trail and error, reading a bit here and there, more trail and error as a hobby. Did have certification to code html a while back. That expired and although I have kept somewhat abreast of it, I'm no web developer by any means.

I have considered computing as a field. I may even do some odd jobs in computing. But I enjoy having an end product. To that end I am planning on doing a bit of wood working as a hobby. If I make a few bucks off of that, great. But I'm not going to be doing it for making money. I have a couple of nephews whom are facing some rough stuff. Me picking up wood working can provide some quality time for helping them. Besides, I like making birdhouses, benches and generally useful things.

My rules though are simple. The wood working for me is a hobby. I can visibly see improvement in my own skill with it. I do not need, want a boss. I can see and know good quality work, in the wood work as well as being a good teacher and guide for nephews. if you see somebody taking a different path as giving up or being less, well, if I was not indifferent to you, pity might be a response. I learned long ago pity gets a person nowhere. As far as I can recall, I have not asked for pity here.

I have expressed things are what they are. I have expressed disillusionment with everything in general. I have expressed acceptance of it all. Yes, there is a difference in accepting and surrender. I do not surrender. Been on that road as well, not going back. I have expressed disliking things as they are, despite accepting them. Have even admitted to having my share of responsibility in a portion of things. Who is dumber, the guy who can finish a project with help but doesn't ask, or the one who tackles it alone and fails? For a long time I have been rather dumb, proud, stubborn ... 'manned up'.

I have grown and gotten wiser, more aware, more easily exhausted and ache filled too. I have come to know myself better. That knowledge suggests it is dumber to keep playing the big proud man. So, I take a different path. I go around walls, instead of beating myself up trying to go through them. To me, you're a wall, all of you have the same back and fronts, and you all look the same. Guess that also comes back to what folks told me regarding work. "It's nothing personal." I used my work at times to help an ailing mother, to feed a family, to pay for a brother's care. No, nothing personal at all. And it's nothing personal with you.

Excuse me, need to attend some chores.

No, in my eyes ...you are not less than a person, just difficult to understand at times. I have tried repeatedly to relate to you...most recently, your response on Aeon's Blog where we connected concerning Castaneda as well as other authors. I've even sent you a PM where I said I felt connected to you & you kind of blew it off. " Not all of us are card carrying, wife beating, real men." This kind of line makes you uniquely, amusing....even endearing. You just don't get it; I have worked shit-work just as you.Excuse me, need to sit on the front porch with a cold beer on a Friday night, viewing the wide open western sky, halfway expecting some sort of astronomical anomaly.

[void()]

No, in my eyes ...you are not less than a person, just difficult to understand at times. I have tried repeatedly to relate to you...most recently, your response on Aeon's Blog where we connected concerning Castaneda as well as other authors. I've even sent you a PM where I said I felt connected to you & you kind of blew it off. " Not all of us are card carrying, wife beating, real men." This kind of line makes you uniquely, amusing....even endearing. You just don't get it; I have worked shit-work just as you.Excuse me, need to sit on the front porch with a cold beer on a Friday night, viewing the wide open western sky, halfway expecting some sort of astronomical anomaly.

If you and I share such a connection, why the difficulty understanding? I have tried figuring that. Ultimately, I return to you not desiring to understand, or appearing not to understand. This to me reads as someone looking for a fight, for any reason they can point to as an excuse. "I could not understand x so, destroyed x."

You seem to use misunderstanding as bait. I dealt with that from someone whom taught me about the stereotype of 'real men'. I know that I can and am capable of writing well. You suggest misunderstanding as a means to goad and prod. Sorry, the one whom taught me was far better, or worse than you ever could be. Using such a tactic to imply inferiority and bolster yourself is unbecoming, if you are using it. Makes you look like a big blank wall to me.

I also know, at times I can be and am capable of being as dense as silt. Sometimes finding an appropriate means of expressing something is difficult for me. I do the best I can. I hope for the best in reception. We are not all uniform robots either, meaning at times some of us might relax and be informal. We are amongst friends whom understand here. Oh, that's right, you don't understand ... so you say. When something is expressed as clear as day, how can it be not understood?

I did not mean to seem to be 'blowing you off' regarding some common grounds. It is one aspect of living, being a person. It does not rule my life. I am not a fanatic over that, nor stark raving mad due to being consumed by it. Many have seen what they believe are spirits. I am not going to say I believe, or disbelieve wholly. Even having that experience does not infer belief in any form of deity. And I will not get bogged down into debate of religion, which is I sense where further discussion of that common ground would lead. We can agree to disagree, and I'm trying to politely do that. It's called diplomacy, I think.

I would sit and have a mixed drink with you. Rum and Coke is nice, or even just rum, once in a great while. It would probably be a rather quiet and uneventful evening. Alcoholism runs in mt family's blood. Does not mean I cannot drink responsibly on occasion. Have a fifth of rum here between two bottles, will probably last two or three years. <sarcasm>I'm really carrying on the family tradition. I'm a huge alcoholic.</sarcasm> Again, something else which does not control my life. It's called discipline, a will to persist I believe.

In case I'm not clear, those card carrying 'real men', they rape their wives and beat their children telling them they will never be anything. I was never his, my teacher's that is. I was never my father's either. I grew up around five or six, had to be my own father. Those 'real men' are either abusers or quitters, choosing to run off and neglect responsibility. Your appeal to that via suggesting to 'man up' was repugnant at best. Sorry, I'm not 'that' man but a different one. Stop equating me to 'those real men'. It would be too easy for me to follow their footsteps, I choose making my own path which is more difficult. It's called being mature, or so I'm told.

This is called me apologizing. Sometimes the best of friends can be the harshest critics. It might even serve a purpose. I have expressed things to you which I probably should have expressed to someone else. I could not while he lived, and would not with the other someone else. The one would have taken the vulnerability put on the block and butchered it. The other didn't care enough to notice, wanted to play daddy to a grown man. Both were <sarcasm> fine examples of card carrying real men.</sarcasm> Both were walls to me. Stepped around them using something called forgiveness. That's said to be having grace, I think.

[pepperjack]

If you and I share such a connection, why the difficulty understanding? I have tried figuring that. Ultimately, I return to you not desiring to understand, or appearing not to understand. This to me reads as someone looking for a fight, for any reason they can point to as an excuse. "I could not understand x so, destroyed x."

You seem to use misunderstanding as bait. I dealt with that from someone whom taught me about the stereotype of 'real men'. I know that I can and am capable of writing well. You suggest misunderstanding as a means to goad and prod. Sorry, the one whom taught me was far better, or worse than you ever could be. Using such a tactic to imply inferiority and bolster yourself is unbecoming, if you are using it. Makes you look like a big blank wall to me.

I also know, at times I can be and am capable of being as dense as silt. Sometimes finding an appropriate means of expressing something is difficult for me. I do the best I can. I hope for the best in reception. We are not all uniform robots either, meaning at times some of us might relax and be informal. We are amongst friends whom understand here. Oh, that's right, you don't understand ... so you say. When something is expressed as clear as day, how can it be not understood?

I did not mean to seem to be 'blowing you off' regarding some common grounds. It is one aspect of living, being a person. It does not rule my life. I am not a fanatic over that, nor stark raving mad due to being consumed by it. Many have seen what they believe are spirits. I am not going to say I believe, or disbelieve wholly. Even having that experience does not infer belief in any form of deity. And I will not get bogged down into debate of religion, which is I sense where further discussion of that common ground would lead. We can agree to disagree, and I'm trying to politely do that. It's called diplomacy, I think.

I would sit and have a mixed drink with you. Rum and Coke is nice, or even just rum, once in a great while. It would probably be a rather quiet and uneventful evening. Alcoholism runs in mt family's blood. Does not mean I cannot drink responsibly on occasion. Have a fifth of rum here between two bottles, will probably last two or three years. <sarcasm>I'm really carrying on the family tradition. I'm a huge alcoholic.</sarcasm> Again, something else which does not control my life. It's called discipline, a will to persist I believe.

In case I'm not clear, those card carrying 'real men', they rape their wives and beat their children telling them they will never be anything. I was never his, my teacher's that is. I was never my father's either. I grew up around five or six, had to be my own father. Those 'real men' are either abusers or quitters, choosing to run off and neglect responsibility. Your appeal to that via suggesting to 'man up' was repugnant at best. Sorry, I'm not 'that' man but a different one. Stop equating me to 'those real men'. It would be too easy for me to follow their footsteps, I choose making my own path which is more difficult. It's called being mature, or so I'm told.

This is called me apologizing. Sometimes the best of friends can be the harshest critics. It might even serve a purpose. I have expressed things to you which I probably should have expressed to someone else. I could not while he lived, and would not with the other someone else. The one would have taken the vulnerability put on the block and butchered it. The other didn't care enough to notice, wanted to play daddy to a grown man. Both were <sarcasm> fine examples of card carrying real men.</sarcasm> Both were walls to me. Stepped around them using something called forgiveness. That's said to be having grace, I think.

Ok, right off the bat, Void, I'm having trouble understanding where you're coming from. In the first paragraph, where you say. "This reads to me like someone looking for a fight." Are you referring to my last post to which you responded? If so, you are seriously paranoid and delusional. I suppose then my comment " This kind of line makes you uniquely amusing...even endearing" and the smilie face at the end are part of a ruse? If that is your reasoning, then this is an absolute exercise in futility. I recently came to a point where I felt weary of trying to understand and get along with you and resolved to just not communicating with you any longer, but you drew me out and I felt compelled to respond. I'm sorry if my response hurt your feelings, but I saw that particular post as just plain silliness and a dodge to a simple question. I told you before,I'm a straight shooter, I tend to be very direct with people and at times,I don't mince words.I can't help it if you can't handle " a spade being called a spade." Also very distorted on your part is how you misinterpreted my reference to the expression, Man-Up. My concept of a real man is so far removed from what you have railed against here and your allegation that I have "equated" you with them is just more paranoid defensiveness. In the last paragraph you say you're apologizing. I am too. I'm tired of striving with you. On a lighter note, I can relate to you again. When I was in my 20's and married, my father-in-law was an enthusiastic Rum&Coke drinker and it just so happened I was working for Coca Cola at the time. It kind of helped to put me on his good side. I kept him well supplied. I even became a Rum&Coke drinker for awhile. Male bonding. It is a very enjoyable drink. Have a nice week-end, Void.

[pepperjack]

" Card carrying real men." Seems like a very appropriate & timely comment given the developments during the last 24 hrs. In other words, the Jerry Sanduskys of the world, football coach ( one of the manliest of sports ), humanitarian, ( The 2nd Mile charity ), family man, regular church attendee, pillar in the community, a man's man. I gotcha, Void.

[elian]

I've already posted my thoughts about Sandusky in another thread. The chaos in this world is a catalyst to keep people learning and changing. Whether you want to cling to the rock, paddle on driftwood or be a leaf on the wind it is your choice to make.

Some of us have wounds that feel as though they run very deep. Grace does indeed heal, and grace can be found in many things..

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quot...ert_Schweitzer

[void()]

Ok, right off the bat, Void, I'm having trouble understanding where you're coming from. In the first paragraph, where you say. "This reads to me like someone looking for a fight." Are you referring to my last post to which you responded? If so, you are seriously paranoid and delusional.

Actually I was referring to our overall interaction, not one portion in particular. You just seem to draw out 'misunderstanding' as an excuse. This can then be used as a straw man, "well void asks for it being so confusing."

And I admit sometimes I am off in a different world. Finding ways to express things is sometimes difficult for me. First because I own up to being something of a dumb old country boy, ignorant at times. Second because I also tend to look at various different aspects, try walking in another person's shoes, consider how it all comes to bear. Third, words are variables to me. You could say hat and mean a garment for your head, I read it and think about knights, astronauts, various ways to murder using a hat, why sardines taste good wearing hat. My mind is freaky like that, sorry.

In other words, the Jerry Sanduskys of the world, football coach ( one of the manliest of sports ), humanitarian, ( The 2nd Mile charity ), family man, regular church attendee, pillar in the community, a man's man. I gotcha, Void.

Quite similar to that stereotype, yes. Fortunately, my step-father never bothered me sexually. Since his death privately we have considered that he may have been very closeted homosexual. If so it may offer some justification. or rather understanding why I would get the shit beaten out of me. He sensed something different in me, taught me to take care of myself. "The world will eat him up, I need to make him tough." It does not condone nor excuse the abuse he visited us but would at least offer a chance of understanding.

And yeah, I'm not that kind of man by any means.

I can't help it if you can't handle " a spade being called a spade." Also very distorted on your part is how you misinterpreted my reference to the expression, Man-Up.

Suppose I call you a pussy and wimp for having a hangnail, complaining about it? You would likely respond defensively. My point being that I know I have dealt with and struggled through worse than a hang nail. I also know that pain can culminate after going hard for a long while, ignoring it.

Things catch up with a person and start making them realize their presence. As recent as five years ago, I could go out and do the mowing here, up hills that are 70-80 degree inclines, mow all day and not blink. Within the past year, it's clear my body no longer willingly desires cooperating. My blood pressure spikes, muscles start spasms, nerves start making joints lock up. The next day I'm lucky to get out of bed.

If i could keep going like I was seventeen, I would. I would love too and mentally I am still gung ho to do it. The body has just started disagreeing, it happens, called growing older. I rue the day I began testosterone treatments. I think it triggered aging quicker than mutated body could handle. Went through puberty in three days really, instead of the normal two or three months. Prior to the treatment, i was 20 and my body was 10. And no, not asking pity, merely as you pointing at a spade and calling it a spade.

Life happens. Yes, we each have so much we can control. I can gladly accept a fair amount of responsibility, as far as things I could control. Beyond that are those things which we cannot control. Sorry, I won't take responsibility for those. For example, I could not choose my parents, did not choose Kalman's Syndrome, did not choose being abused. All of this culminated to here and now. And in that I realize inability. Such a realization is frustrating too. I loathe asking for help. My PawPaw and Pap were/are old hard core workhorses from the late 20's and 30's, don't think for an instant they didn't instill a strong work ethic in me.

I feel shame to ask for help. Family has been very understanding, and has also started pointing my slipping up. If family doesn't know a person then I guess no one does. My wife got mad at me for losing a job. "Work, no excuses!" I went back to work, tried very hard to manage, did as good as I could. It was not enough. She says she forgets telling me that. I remember it quite clearly and was as mad at myself if not more so than her when she said it. If what you're doing isn't working, you try something else. I did, other work, it still wasn't panning out. Now, I can only ask for help.

Sorry, I'm not gaming the system. That does not even enter into how I believe, or think. I do not abuse or take advantage. Again, not that type of 'real man'. So, yes, I responded defensively to you 'calling a spade a spade', because I'm not what you suggest. Believe in honor?

[pepperjack]

I've already posted my thoughts about Sandusky in another thread. The chaos in this world is a catalyst to keep people learning and changing. Whether you want to cling to the rock, paddle on driftwood or be a leaf on the wind it is your choice to make.

Some of us have wounds that feel as though they run very deep. Grace does indeed heal, and grace can be found in many things..

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quot...ert_Schweitzer

I enjoy David Yount occasionally in my Saturday paper. He refers to his column as ' Amazing Grace. Today's contribution was, " The demands of love aren't easy." He writes that " Jesus made a fool of himself for love. He was love's victim, literally killed for caring." Yes, Jesus really raised the bar for us human beings concerning how to treat one another. Like He said, " The way is straight and narrow; many will seek to enter, but few will find it."

[pepperjack]

Actually I was referring to our overall interaction, not one portion in particular. You just seem to draw out 'misunderstanding' as an excuse. This can then be used as a straw man, "well void asks for it being so confusing."

And I admit sometimes I am off in a different world. Finding ways to express things is sometimes difficult for me. First because I own up to being something of a dumb old country boy, ignorant at times. Second because I also tend to look at various different aspects, try walking in another person's shoes, consider how it all comes to bear. Third, words are variables to me. You could say hat and mean a garment for your head, I read it and think about knights, astronauts, various ways to murder using a hat, why sardines taste good wearing hat. My mind is freaky like that, sorry.





Quite similar to that stereotype, yes. Fortunately, my step-father never bothered me sexually. Since his death privately we have considered that he may have been very closeted homosexual. If so it may offer some justification. or rather understanding why I would get the shit beaten out of me. He sensed something different in me, taught me to take care of myself. "The world will eat him up, I need to make him tough." It does not condone nor excuse the abuse he visited us but would at least offer a chance of understanding.

And yeah, I'm not that kind of man by any means.



Suppose I call you a pussy and wimp for having a hangnail, complaining about it? You would likely respond defensively. My point being that I know I have dealt with and struggled through worse than a hang nail. I also know that pain can culminate after going hard for a long while, ignoring it.

Things catch up with a person and start making them realize their presence. As recent as five years ago, I could go out and do the mowing here, up hills that are 70-80 degree inclines, mow all day and not blink. Within the past year, it's clear my body no longer willingly desires cooperating. My blood pressure spikes, muscles start spasms, nerves start making joints lock up. The next day I'm lucky to get out of bed.

If i could keep going like I was seventeen, I would. I would love too and mentally I am still gung ho to do it. The body has just started disagreeing, it happens, called growing older. I rue the day I began testosterone treatments. I think it triggered aging quicker than mutated body could handle. Went through puberty in three days really, instead of the normal two or three months. Prior to the treatment, i was 20 and my body was 10. And no, not asking pity, merely as you pointing at a spade and calling it a spade.

Life happens. Yes, we each have so much we can control. I can gladly accept a fair amount of responsibility, as far as things I could control. Beyond that are those things which we cannot control. Sorry, I won't take responsibility for those. For example, I could not choose my parents, did not choose Kalman's Syndrome, did not choose being abused. All of this culminated to here and now. And in that I realize inability. Such a realization is frustrating too. I loathe asking for help. My PawPaw and Pap were/are old hard core workhorses from the late 20's and 30's, don't think for an instant they didn't instill a strong work ethic in me.

I feel shame to ask for help. Family has been very understanding, and has also started pointing my slipping up. If family doesn't know a person then I guess no one does. My wife got mad at me for losing a job. "Work, no excuses!" I went back to work, tried very hard to manage, did as good as I could. It was not enough. She says she forgets telling me that. I remember it quite clearly and was as mad at myself if not more so than her when she said it. If what you're doing isn't working, you try something else. I did, other work, it still wasn't panning out. Now, I can only ask for help.

Sorry, I'm not gaming the system. That does not even enter into how I believe, or think. I do not abuse or take advantage. Again, not that type of 'real man'. So, yes, I responded defensively to you 'calling a spade a spade', because I'm not what you suggest. Believe in honor?

I have two neighbors dealing with the disability issue. One is actually receiving it for a supposedly bad back. I say supposedly because I've seen him often, working in his yard, even cutting large tree limbs and loading them onto his truck without a bit of trouble. The other neighbor is also claiming a bad back and it appears to me that it might be ( not entirely convinced ) legit, but his claim keeps getting denied. Plus, I've had to deal with too many deadbeats on the job and their lame excuses justifying their just plain laziness and expecting to get by on the efforts of others. Finally, the recently discovered statistic of the 72% fraudulent claims was the final clincher for me. So, within the context of the aforementioned experiences, I cynically assumed you to be in that majority. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not, in honor. I've been unemployed often enough to know how difficult & depressing it is to deal with. Plus, I'm aware that you live in a part of the country that historically, has endured much poverty. I used to contribute to a charity which was providing aid to the desperately poor of Appalachia. In many parts of my state, we're fortunate to have an unemployment rate lower than the national average. Sometimes I get a little carried away with my 'tough love' mindset. If you're seeking help as you say, I hope you find it. Contrary to popular belief " real men DO stop and ask for directions."