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  1. #1

    Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty

    ever wonder why the government has been making crazy laws and getting away with it.

    I happened upon this site while searching Google for why people are so quick to give up their freedoms and the freedoms of others. it seems to me we are all our brothers keepers, if we turn a blind eye to another person's loss of their liberty's because it dose not concern us or we don't like them for what ever reason then we can expect to be next. anyone interested in freedom should read this entire site. it will give you insight as to how the founding fathers and true Americans thought of liberty and government. for they that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Benjamin Franklin)
    I never considered my self neither republican nor democrat i always thought of my self as an American and have taken no stance politicaly for i see them both as hungry for power, and if i had to put a label on my self politicly i guess it would be a Constitutionalist. for i believe without it we would all be slaves to the governments tyranny.

    "In Germany, the Nazis first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak for me."

    i would be interested in hearing the comments of any and all who visit the site and read all of it.

    Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty


    http://freedomkeys.com/vigil.htm
    Last edited by *pan*; May 18, 2012 at 9:13 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty

    "It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from
    falling into error." -- U.S. Supreme Court in American Communications Association v. Douds
    You'd think that was actually practical within a democracy. But the errors keep coming year after year.
    What we ALL need are governments with unbiased common sense to work FOR us.

  3. #3

    Re: Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty

    Quote Originally Posted by Gearbox View Post
    You'd think that was actually practical within a democracy. But the errors keep coming year after year.
    What we ALL need are governments with unbiased common sense to work FOR us.
    yeah but the trouble with a democracy is that sometimes the majority of the people *want* to vote in repressive governments. If you hand over power to the people you have to accept that sometimes the people are gonna make the wrong decision. Democracies by default do not create progressive or modern thinking governments. You cant look at a country's dysfunctional government and always assume that the citizens there are in chains or that they or need to be further democracised just because your country doesn't like the elected government.
    Democracies with ultra conservative, capitalist, religiously influenced governments that restrict human rights simply demonstrate that the majority of voters are ultra-conservative, capitalist, heavily religious and believe in the restiction of human rights themselves....

    ....for instance in the US in 2000....

    d
    "I like the pole & the hole."

  4. #4
    FinkDoodle
    Guest

    Re: Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty

    In a word . . "bullshit."

  5. #5

    Re: Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty

    I read the attached site. Some of the quotes I could agree with. Others I wondered in what context the rest of the person's statement was made?

    I find the word "liberty" and "freedom" emphasized more by people from the USA but they have been placed in opposite of "freedom" by governments who have used the word "freedom" to justify their actions. It took a long time before information was found that over 100 000 people in Iraq and Afghanistan had to die because the word "freedom" was attached to some rather anti free US government behaviour. There may very well be US people deny this statement on this site. The US media was muzzled during the first decade of this century as to what was really going on under the name of fighting for US freedom.

    The question of freedom versus safety security is also another fascinating but difficult issue.

    Yesterday, in Canada, a report was finally released about the G20 meeting in Toronto two years ago. More than 1000 people were arrested in 48 hours. Some were beaten. Some were forced to stand in the middle of a road with plastic handcuffs cutting in to their wrist during a severe rainstorm with lightening. Hundreds were placed in a facility without food and water or private washroom privilege. Some had their charter rights of search violated according to the report. Few were actually charged and went to court though. Criticism was laid against the police yesterday and even before the report. People want at least an apology and none is forthcoming. People want assurances that this will not happen again under the guise of security. The Toronto chief has not apologized nor resigned. Some Toronto police are now being charged with something after two years.

    One of the quotes referred to being critical of a government or you lose your rights. Stand up for liberty. People stand up and complain. Nothing is done. The rest of the people re elect these same "leaders". It is difficult to decide what should be done in a supposed "free" country like Canada.

    Then there is the misuse of the word "freedom" and difference in societies as to what constitutes freedom. It is generally considered that health care in Canada and not having health care is not considered being "free". Yet, in the USA, people argue that not to provide health care to all citizens is being free.

    There is much difference as to what freedom is in the world.
    Last edited by tenni; May 18, 2012 at 8:18 PM.

  6. #6

    Re: Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty

    tenni,

    I'm often reminded of the joke about freedom being just a word meaning you've nothing else left to lose. Also am with you on not being sure of the definition. When American colonials stood and defended against England, we were freedom fighters. When Iraq, Afghan do the same they are called terrorists, or insurgents and deemed enemy forces.

    Saytr,

    You need a hug *hugs* Still think we ought to go out sometime. Even if it isn't for anything but a coffee or a beer.

  7. #7

    Re: Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty

    i think the point about freedom that the founding fathers and many others were trying to make was to keep an ever vigilant eye on the government and not to trust them to make the right decisions on their own. people tend to get comfortable, then lazy and trust the government to do what it's supposed to with in the confines of the constitution but as we all know power and money corrupts even the best of men. if a person dosent speak up in the beginning or is dupped by well meaning lawmakers who always have an agenda. the first sign as i see it is when ever a law is made that runs contrary to the bill of rights. or when law makers start breaking down the bill of rights and analyzing it to see just what they can get away with it is time to tell them to stop. the united states in the past 30 or so years has been analyzing the constitution trying to instill laws to it's benifit to gain more power when the bill of rights needs no interpretation. the founding fathers wrote it in laymans terms so all could understand it but the government when wanting to pass a law that restricts any freedom it analyzes it and complicates it to through off the public. example " the right to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed", then there is a comma to denote another part about a well regulated milita. in laymans terms it is saying no law can be made to take the right of anyone to keep and carry arms, and no law can be made to keep a town oupe of people from having a milita. if one puts them selves in the mind set of a country or groupe of people that was fed up with over bearing dictators s easy to see they did not want anyone not even a government controling their freedoms in any way. the expost facto law or bill of attainer. but yet the government now wanting to punish people who already payed their debt to society, analyzies the expost facto law and says it dosent apply to civil law when clearly it states that no ex post facto law may be made, dosent mention anything about civil or criminal.
    when a person swears to uphold and defend the constitution then turns around and makes laws that go against it i believe they are criminals them selves and traitors to the people they swore to serve. this as i see it is just one of the problems. if the law makers can do it and they given total power to the police then their is going to be rights trampled on like in canada and in the us. if we allow this then why should we expect our police to behave or our government in another country where they have no such protections as the constitution.the bottom line is we let them trample our fredoms because they scared us into letting them with promisses of protection. the preventive state is another grab for power by scaring the public into giving up freedoms for safety. when the only good the police is for is to come draw the chalk line around the body after the crime. what part of they cannot protect you don't you understand. the shepard no matter how much he protects his sheep will always loose a few to the wolf.
    people are now paying the price for too long staying silent when others they did ot care about had their freedoms trampled on like the quote says when they came for the jews i said nothing cause i wasnt a jew............ then when they came for me there was no one left to speak for me........ if we do not speak for another stranger when their rights are trampled then in the end there will be no one lef to speak us. devide and conqure has always been a good rule. the government has devided even the american family which at one time was said the be the only thing stronger then government. that is gone now with the inevey aspect of family life. childern telling on parents. laws being made that will prosecute a mother for helping a son to evade the law. even if the son was unjustly charged. this is the setting of a fasist government. like in nazi germany where a family was punished for helping another family member evade capture. never in the history of this country were laws like this made that put family members against them selves. at one time a wife could not be forced to testify against a husband and it was natural for a mother to protect her childern from anyone even the government. what happened ? i tell you what happened, people let the government dupe them into giving up these rights and freedoms and the sheeple willing gave them up because it didn't involve them at the time. they were strangers .
    Last edited by *pan*; May 19, 2012 at 7:28 AM.

  8. #8

    Re: Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty

    Answer me this. Would you trust a supplicant hand outstretched to aid you in the darkness? The hand of a stranger there to help. Trust it? Please let me know, saytr.

    Many have difficulty trusting helpful strangers. Guess it may have to do with a wooden horse in Troy, or maybe Phoenician trading practices. They would show you two crates, one on offer for your goods. The crates would not be permitted to be opened. If they felt generous one crate may be smaller. More often than not the crates were identical. Traders would need to blindly pick a crate in return for their goods, which the Phoenicians had already seen and inspected, usually via sending advanced scouts. All deals final, no haggling or negotiating.

  9. #9

    Re: Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty

    Quote Originally Posted by void_dweller View Post
    Answer me this. Would you trust a supplicant hand outstretched to aid you in the darkness? The hand of a stranger there to help. Trust it? Please let me know, saytr.

    Many have difficulty trusting helpful strangers. Guess it may have to do with a wooden horse in Troy, or maybe Phoenician trading practices. They would show you two crates, one on offer for your goods. The crates would not be permitted to be opened. If they felt generous one crate may be smaller. More often than not the crates were identical. Traders would need to blindly pick a crate in return for their goods, which the Phoenicians had already seen and inspected, usually via sending advanced scouts. All deals final, no haggling or negotiating.
    it's not about trust, when i see a stranger who's rights are violated no matter the charge or circumstance i get mad because even though i might not know or even like that person, when their rights are violated i could be next. so i will speak up even if it is just to comment on it. the news media plays a good part at swaying peoples opinions just like in the Trayvon Martin case. the media had the shooter convicted even before the facts were known. that is why i don't believe all that i hear. there are many other cases where the media swings the public opinion into a frenzy even to hysteria, many times in order to swing popular opinion so insane laws can be passed to further the agenda of the government. when i heard about the Martin case i did not form an opinion but waited and listened for the facts. many claim to be open minded but are not on many topics. people seem to form opinions even though they do not know all the facts. i know the constitutional laws and when i see someone who's rights are violated i get mad and say something. i am not gay and am married to a woman but will still speak out when ever the topic of gay marriage comes up. because it is their right to love who they wish and marry who they choose, this is a personal thing and should not be subject to government intervention that is driven by religious zealots. government will always trample on the individual rights of man in order to make laws to gain even more power. for every right that is taken gives them more leverage in a direction that can only lead to control every aspect of the individuals life, which was never the intent of the founding fathers.

  10. #10

    Re: Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty

    Quote Originally Posted by *pan* View Post
    it's not about trust, when i see a stranger who's rights are violated no matter the charge or circumstance i get mad because even though i might not know or even like that person, when their rights are violated i could be next. so i will speak up even if it is just to comment on it. the news media plays a good part at swaying peoples opinions just like in the Trayvon Martin case. the media had the shooter convicted even before the facts were known. that is why i don't believe all that i hear. there are many other cases where the media swings the public opinion into a frenzy even to hysteria, many times in order to swing popular opinion so insane laws can be passed to further the agenda of the government. when i heard about the Martin case i did not form an opinion but waited and listened for the facts. many claim to be open minded but are not on many topics. people seem to form opinions even though they do not know all the facts. i know the constitutional laws and when i see someone who's rights are violated i get mad and say something. i am not gay and am married to a woman but will still speak out when ever the topic of gay marriage comes up. because it is their right to love who they wish and marry who they choose, this is a personal thing and should not be subject to government intervention that is driven by religious zealots. government will always trample on the individual rights of man in order to make laws to gain even more power. for every right that is taken gives them more leverage in a direction that can only lead to control every aspect of the individuals life, which was never the intent of the founding fathers.
    Your reply reveals much which in my view does equate to an issue of trust. You exhibit a sense of honor and dignity. You are welcome friend. I would trust you, and by extension your judgement in a case involving such.

    I concur with you many blindly sling opinion without basis in fact. I have done so at times despite trying not to. No, I am not offering excuses or asking some divinity to absolve sins. Part of being human is making mistakes. Anyone saying they are without fault is usually full of beans.

    Unfortunately, I'm not aware of this Trayvon Martin case which you speak. Beyond hearing someone shot someone else, I remain willfully ignorant this and many other particular news media 'events'. So, being ignorant of that case, I have no opinion. I have the generalist view that shooting others unless in defense of life or love is wrong and bad. That could apply to anyone shooting anyone, ergo I have no real opinion on this particular case. Call me Switzerland.

    And I also concur the government of late seems hell bent upon destroying a grand ideal. I believe that when push comes to shove you'll be a bit surprised in whom steps up to knock them out of the park, and that someone is abreast, cares enough to keep people safe without destroying their liberty. "I stand for what I stand on."

 

 

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