HIV, Bisexuality and the Gender Conundrum

[Long Duck Dong]

"Reading the posts on sites such as this supports the veiw that bi men are irresponsible , and indescrimanent in their sexual encounters. Now I hate to be judgemental but all the married closeted men who seek anonymous encounters are really putting themselves and thier spouse in great danger."

Yes, you and a few others are being bigoted and preachy without experience as to what is really going on seuxally for active non monogamous bisexual men(of which I'm one).

You are a monogamous married person being preachy to those bisexual men who are not what you are. Just as the OP. It is rather sad and negatively assumptive to state that bimen are irresponsible and indiscriminate in their sexual encounters when you are not sexually involved with them. We have a woman who gets her male sex from one man and female sex from many women condemning bisexual men. We have a celibate bisexual man condemning those who are not celibate. We have an intersexed person of questionable sexuality denying bi Invisibility with an arrogant air of delusional expertisms. So on and so on. So many negative condemning bisexual men. It is as if we are worse than hetero men or gay men.

Would you like another cup of biphobia sir?

and we have people like you that tell bi people that they are not welcome in the site unless they are here to hook up, telling bi sexuals that they are not bisexual enuf to call themselves bisexual, and even telling bisexuals that they do not fit the criteria of bisexuality as defined by you...... so I would say that its a draw....

there is no denying that some bi men are irresponsible, but its not a bisexual aspect, its something that any person is capable of..... ignorance however is a aspect of people when it comes to a lot of sexual encounters as the need to use the brain, is superseded by the need to stick the dick in something

btw are you going to top up peoples cups of biphobia from your coffee urn of hypocrisy ?

[darkeyes]

So many negative condemning bisexual men. It is as if we are worse than hetero men or gay men.

Would you like another cup of biphobia sir?

I may argue with much of what u say, tenni, and no doubt shall again.. I hope.. but what u say above is fundamentally a truism... there are those who tell us that bisexual men are more promiscuous and dishonest than gay or straight men.. there are even "studies" which tell us so.. as does popular myth and misconception which exist because we do not know and tbh many in all sexualities do not want to know... they believe what they wish to believe because it suits their purpose... but the negativity of which u speak isn't something I have ever accepted any more than I accept all women of any sexuality to be entirely honest and lacking in promiscuity.. the fact is that there are no certain facts in this regard we know of.. there are millions of faithful and monogamous men and women of all sexualities and many who are not.. whether one sexuality is more promiscuous than another and more dishonest depends very much on our own prejudices and gut feelings..

Whether we can call Jason biphobic is questionable.. many of us have downers on our own kind and are conned by propaganda... it isnt so much biphobia as some shame either of what we are or what we believe our kind get up to.. by buying into what the world at large tells us of our own kind... things that we should be arguing with, getting to the bottom of and correcting...

[Jason0012]

I am married and you presume that I am monogamous? I am objecting to irresponsible behavior being one of the more visible aspects of our community. I know , if you don't advertise nobody wil know your dick is available! That is stupid and childish! Go take it to craigs list! Lots of us have real sex lives offline. I come here in hopes of finding some sort of community, were inteligent discussions can take place. It is terribly damning to our perception even within our community when it begins to look like all any of us do is have indescriminant sex with whoever. While appreciate the joys of sexual freedom we live in a world where random sex is still dangerous. Advertising , even promoting dangerous behavior is not necessarily what I want to see out of the LGBT community as a whole, much less the highly maligned bisexual community. Who can really blame those who see us as dangerous when we ourselves promote such behavior?

I should add that unlike the originator of this thread I am involved with a bisexual man, quite happily I might add. Just because I understand the misgivings dosen't mean I share them.

[tenni]

Jason
From my perspective you are in a closed loop relationship according to your profile. You are condemning those of us who are not "just like you". You are assuming that casual sex is dangerous. Yes, there may be more danger than your situation but that doesn't mean that caution is not used. It also doesn't mean that one of your foursome may not wander without telling. If a person is involved in casual sex or fwb or fuck buddies there is a need for more caution and listening to what is being said (or not said). That doesn't mean that listening and deciding what sexual activity you will engage in are not used. Not everyone participates in dangerous sexual activities who is engaged in casual sex. This is assumed more of men than women and particularly on this site. Research has indicated that women are nearly as likely to go outside of their relationship as men. They just don't disclose or get caught as much as men. Then we have women on this site admitting to being poly swingers without much condemnation. wtf?

[slipnslide]

and we have people like you that tell bi people that they are not welcome in the site unless they are here to hook up, telling bi sexuals that they are not bisexual enuf to call themselves bisexual, and even telling bisexuals that they do not fit the criteria of bisexuality as defined by you...... so I would say that its a draw....

haha!

[darkrainbow]

I have to say that this thread saddens me. I have read a lot of negative things on this thread about male on male sex and bisexual bashing (including the posts from my husband Jason) and it breaks my heart. Truth be told ALL sex in the day of HIV/AIDS comes with risks and it is only up to the individuals involved to make the assessment and decide how much of a risk they are willing to take. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with this discussion. You and You alone are responsible for your own sexual safety. If someone wants to have unprotected sex with you and you feel that the risk is too high you have the right to say no even if you are in a committed supposedly monogamous relationship with that person/persons.

I enjoy having sex with bisexual men. I think that male on male sex is something that bisexuals (especially bisexual men) on this site should not be bashing; be it casual or monogamous. What I do have a problem with is people (men and women) who are in assumed committed monogamous relationships with someone that practices risky sexual behavior behind the back of their significant other/others. Lying and cheating on someone who thinks that they are in a monogamous relationship with them is lying and cheating plain and simple. While I do not condone the "down low" lifestyle I also do not live in a bubble and know that it exists. If people regardless of gender and sexual orientation feel the need to have sex this way the least they can do is to be as safe as they can and practice safe sex 100% of the time if not for their own safety, but for the safety of their partner/partners.

One point that Jason brought up that I think was overlooked by the discussion on whether he is biphobic or not was his concern about the youth of today not really being concerned with practicing safe sex. I was in this class and saw it myself and it was very disturbing to hear these teenagers/young adults talk about how contracting HIV/AIDS was just an aspect of being LGBTQ. If you get HIV/AIDS you just have to take a pill for the rest of your life, no big deal. While I am glad that HIV/AIDS is not the death sentence that it was in the 80's and 90's it still concerns me that they were being so cavalier about it.

[slipnslide]

As much as I hate to see someone write off bi men as a group, I can not, as a bi man myself, really blame them! I wrote off gay men more than 20 yrs ago myself !

Something is happening, but it's too soon to see what it is, but I now have gay friends who have stopped having sex because of the risks. Just last night a buddy told me that he doesn't have sex with men anymore because in his view the ones that have many partners seem to be using sex in response to emotional issues. Turns out we both gave up MSM sex about a year ago. That's the second gay friend to tell me a similar reason they've stopped having sex.

We may see jumps in STI / HIV infections over the next while, maybe it's happening now, because that circle of MSM grows smaller and the "promiscuous" ones become a higher percentage of that population.

[Jason0012]

But bi men aren't anymore dangerous than gay or straight men. There is just a perception of them being more dangerous. If anything an out, open, and honest bi man is realitively safe. I was trying to sugest that perhaps we should be aware of how we project ourselves. My wife was very forceful in pointing out to me(offline) that this is not a public space and I should leave the folks looking for hookups alone. Fair enough. As for giving up sex with men.......I gave up on gay men due to a specific incident with a particularly dificult individual. It was really meant in jest, though I never want to deal with that again it is way off topic.

[slipnslide]

I have to say that this thread saddens me. I have read a lot of negative things on this thread about male on male sex and bisexual bashing (including the posts from my husband Jason) and it breaks my heart. Truth be told ALL sex in the day of HIV/AIDS comes with risks and it is only up to the individuals involved to make the assessment and decide how much of a risk they are willing to take. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with this discussion. You and You alone are responsible for your own sexual safety.

You can't remove sexual orientation from this as it tells the story. As the numbers stated earlier in this thread show, the MSM community is experiencing an epidemic of STI and HIV infections. When confronted with reality, a portion of this community throw their hands up and call you biphobic / homophobic. The numbers have a bias in reality though. The arguments against that aren't about reality, but about individuals trying to address the cognitive dissonance brought on by this knowledge. You get ridiculous responses like "well heterosexuals get STIs too don't you know . . .you are idiot" - completely obfuscating the basis of the argument.

There is no such thing as safe sex, only safer sex. Maybe instead we need to turn the argument around and instead ask: why do heterosexuals have such relatively low infection rates?

[slipnslide]

My wife was very forceful in pointing out to me(offline) that this is not a public space and I should leave the folks looking for hookups alone. Fair enough.

Your wife is dead wrong. You do have a responsibility as a member of a society to point out when people are behaving badly. The whole "I'm okay, you're okay" nonsense is what got us here. People seeking hook-ups are public health menaces that are costing us all money to clean up their messes.

[slipnslide]

But bi men aren't anymore dangerous than gay or straight men.

whoa whoa! The numbers above make it clear that:

(MSM) > (heterosexual men) in terms of risk.

[darkrainbow]

You can't remove sexual orientation from this as it tells the story. As the numbers stated earlier in this thread show, the MSM community is experiencing an epidemic of STI and HIV infections.

I disagree, male on male sex is not a sexual orientation; it is a sexual behavior.

[Jason0012]

But of course , how do you know someone is heterosexual? The gay man I referenced above claims to be heterosexual, is married and regularly hooks up with anonymous men. He represents a far greater risk than a man who is open and honest and careful. There are many dangerous things in this world. In my profession I regularly work with high voltage electric lines, many ton machinery, explosive, and corrosive chemicals, and a long list of other dangerous things. I still posses all my parts because I am carefull. A known and understood risk is far less dangerous than one that is ignored.

[slipnslide]

A known and understood risk is far less dangerous than one that is ignored.

Exactly, and the MSM community puts on blinders and ignores the risks. If that weren't true, their infection rates should match the heterosexual community.

[drugstore cowboy]

Two years ago my wife took a few LGBT history classes as humanity electives at our local university. We were both shocked at the veiws that the 19-20something gay students had twords HIV/AIDS. Most viewed contracting the virus as inevitable, like chicken pox, and had about as much concern about it. We grew up in the shadow of the AIDS epidemic. I remember when it was called GRIDS! It was a scarry time, the disease is still scarry but there are a lot of people now who don't care. I gave up on men for many years after learning about gay culture. Reading the posts on sites such as this supports the veiw that bi men are irresponsible , and indescrimanent in their sexual encounters. Now I hate to be judgemental but all the married closeted men who seek anonymous encounters are really putting themselves and thier spouse in great danger. It has always irked me terribly to see as much of that as there is. As much as I hate to see someone write off bi men as a group, I can not, as a bi man myself, really blame them! I wrote off gay men more than 20 yrs ago myself ! The falacy in this thinking of course is that heterosexuals still spread the disaease so safe sex should be the rule for everybody.

What's your point? I have been sexually active with men both before AIDS, during the pandemic, and my entire adult life. My bisexual male partner is the same way and we are still HIV neg, and there are a lot of bisexual and gay men who are just like us who have been sexually active before AIDS and are still sexually active with men yet we are HIV neg and don't have any STDs since we practice safer sex and have ever since it was known about in the 80s. I also agree that you're being very biphobic but there are people here who live in fear who will agree with you.

Reading over that I feel it sounds preechy. I know full well that the posts I speak of are only a small part of what goes on here. There are of course many of us bisexuals who are responsible. Some are even monogmous! The issue I have is that all those irresponsible folks become really visible when they come cruising these sites. Has anyone been in the chat and NOT been IM'd for cyber sex?

This is a sex/dating/hook up site, and there's a chat room on here. Of course you're going to get people who want to cyber or who are interested in dating/hooking up. You're also forgetting that it's entirely possible to have safe sex with a stranger or multiple strangers, even strangers who are HIV+ or who have an STD and you won't get infected from them.

[drugstore cowboy]

Your wife is dead wrong. You do have a responsibility as a member of a society to point out when people are behaving badly. The whole "I'm okay, you're okay" nonsense is what got us here. People seeking hook-ups are public health menaces that are costing us all money to clean up their messes.

Stop living in fear. Acting as though it's still the 80s and flipping out with AIDS paranoia and your own Poz phobia does not do you or anyone else any good. It's 2012, everyone knows how to have safer sex, use condoms, and knows how HIV and other STDs infect someone. It's someone's personal responsibility or their choice to have safer sex, and it's their choice to not have it if that is what they want to do. People who are into casual sex or hooking up with strangers are not as you put it "public health menaces". I know you're totally against hooking up or casual sex even though you've had it in the past; but it is possible to have safer sex with a stranger/strangers, even people who are HIV+ and you won't get infected with HIV.

[tenni]

I have to say that this thread saddens me. I have read a lot of negative things on this thread about male on male sex and bisexual bashing (including the posts from my husband Jason) and it breaks my heart. Truth be told ALL sex in the day of HIV/AIDS comes with risks and it is only up to the individuals involved to make the assessment and decide how much of a risk they are willing to take. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with this discussion. You and You alone are responsible for your own sexual safety. If someone wants to have unprotected sex with you and you feel that the risk is too high you have the right to say no even if you are in a committed supposedly monogamous relationship with that person/persons.

I enjoy having sex with bisexual men. I think that male on male sex is something that bisexuals (especially bisexual men) on this site should not be bashing; be it casual or monogamous. What I do have a problem with is people (men and women) who are in assumed committed monogamous relationships with someone that practices risky sexual behavior behind the back of their significant other/others. Lying and cheating on someone who thinks that they are in a monogamous relationship with them is lying and cheating plain and simple. While I do not condone the "down low" lifestyle I also do not live in a bubble and know that it exists. If people regardless of gender and sexual orientation feel the need to have sex this way the least they can do is to be as safe as they can and practice safe sex 100% of the time if not for their own safety, but for the safety of their partner/partners.

One point that Jason brought up that I think was overlooked by the discussion on whether he is biphobic or not was his concern about the youth of today not really being concerned with practicing safe sex. I was in this class and saw it myself and it was very disturbing to hear these teenagers/young adults talk about how contracting HIV/AIDS was just an aspect of being LGBTQ. If you get HIV/AIDS you just have to take a pill for the rest of your life, no big deal. While I am glad that HIV/AIDS is not the death sentence that it was in the 80's and 90's it still concerns me that they were being so cavalier about it.

Thank you darkrainbow.

You know Jason better than me. Jason You have a lovely wise wife. Lucky bugger.

MSM statsbdo not clarify whether it is gay men, bi men or both that have high incidents of HIV. There are no stats for bimen HIV alone and so why would bisexual men bash other bimen on a bisexual site assuming that "other" bi men are the bad one? Sounds rather biphobic and "better than thou" approach to me.

[Long Duck Dong]

But bi men aren't anymore dangerous than gay or straight men. There is just a perception of them being more dangerous. If anything an out, open, and honest bi man is realitively safe. I was trying to sugest that perhaps we should be aware of how we project ourselves. My wife was very forceful in pointing out to me(offline) that this is not a public space and I should leave the folks looking for hookups alone. Fair enough. As for giving up sex with men.......I gave up on gay men due to a specific incident with a particularly dificult individual. It was really meant in jest, though I never want to deal with that again it is way off topic.

agreed, its not the sexuality that is the issue, its the attitude of the person in regards to their sexual practices, that cause a lot of the issues....

unfortunately, no matter what you say... if its not portraying bisexuals as angels with halos and harps, you will be called biphobic.... never mind the fact that the behievour of some bisexuals is not exactly angelic lol..... and while some of the posts by drugstore cowboy, may be correct in that you can have sex with hiv + people and still be safe.... people on the outside can read stuff like that and be thinking " jesus, bisexuals are so hard up for sex, they will risk their health in order to get laid " so yeah the image of bisexuals as people without morals, ethics or a sense of self preservation, is something that we can reinforce, intentionally or otherwise.....

the person most responsible for how you are seen, is yourself... as that is the key difference between being misunderstood as a bisexual and showing people what you as a bisexual, is really like..... and how different you are from other bisexuals or peoples understandings of bisexuals and bisexuality.....
part of the trouble there, for a lot of bisexuals is how they try to argue that they are not promiscuous people, they just like casual hook ups and discreet encounters... and while it makes sense to the bisexual.... it sounds like a contradiction in terms to other people......

a part of what gives the illusion of bisexual men being more dangerous, is how we protray ourselves as people that need males and females...so people will see a person that is sleeping with males and females and that in most peoples eyes, comes across as a very active sex life with both sexes... yet so many bisexuals are quick to say that is not the case for them at all.... they may be lucky to have sex 3 times a week with their partner and once every 1-2 months with another partner .......

but the most visible aspect of bisexuality, is not this forum... its the clubs, bars etc where the more risque bisexual is active..... and the more subdued bisexual as well lol.... and that is where a lot of the fake image of bisexuality is coming from..... cos people that are quiet / discreet bisexuals, are barely seen and noticed by other people..... and that comes back to the issue of where the visibility of bisexuality is being portrayed by those most vocal and visible with their sexuality and not the people that sit in sites like this, or are closeted, so do not really do much to change the image of bisexuality, other than to label people like you, biphobic and people like me that are out and visible in my own community, as people that are supporting bi invisibility....

[Gearbox]

unfortunately, no matter what you say... if its not portraying bisexuals as angels with halos and harps, you will be called biphobic.

That's not biphobic! That's realistic! What IS biphobic is making out that bi's are the only ones with wonky halos.
As you should know from being in a gaybar, being bisexual and liking both genders doesn't mean that bi's get double the dose of sex partners. Promiscuous Gays, lesbians and hetero's are just as promiscuous, if not more so.

but the most visible aspect of bisexuality, is not this forum... its the clubs, bars etc where the more risque bisexual is active..... and the more subdued bisexual as well lol.... and that is where a lot of the fake image of bisexuality is coming from..... cos people that are quiet / discreet bisexuals, are barely seen and noticed by other people..... and that comes back to the issue of where the visibility of bisexuality is being portrayed by those most vocal and visible with their sexuality and not the people that sit in sites like this, or are closeted, so do not really do much to change the image of bisexuality, other than to label people like you, biphobic and people like me that are out and visible in my own community, as people that are supporting bi invisibility....

So sitting in a gaybar is doing something to change the image of bisexuality? To gays?
The 'real' image of bi's is the loud flamboyant kind that hangs around gaybars, and the closeted bi's on this site are fakes?

Really LDD, you get your perspective of bi visibility from gaybars? You do realise that not ALL bi's or gays are on the 'gay scene' or want to be either?
And being visible hasn't done out gays&lesbians any favours on the viewed as promiscuous front either. You don't need both genders to be dangerous, as you should know from your interaction with the non bi clientèle. You don't seem to remember that when you post on here though. Are you worried that your gay 'non-bitchy' friends will read what you say?

Go on! Be honest! Who's the sluttiest? Bi's or gays?

[12voltman59]

This post is just a bit off topic, at least in regards to the group in question that has or had some odd attitudes regarding HIV/AIDS:

It is something the attitudes that people have about HIV/AIDs and who can or "cannot" get it---it was when I worked as a reporter that I had become come to know a lady in one of the towns I worked who set up a shelter for abused women and their children to flee their situations----and my editor assigned to do a number of articles about the shelter, the programs and such they offered-- the lady who founded the organization herself ran it as a non-profit---since that county was more rural and less urban with a county government that didn't offer all of the sorts of social services that are found being offered by the larger metro counties---so both that town and the county contracted with her to provide her services to the courts and other agencies for what they offered.

As such---I sat in on a series, from beginning to end, of group sessions they held for the men who had been doing such abuse---ordered to do so by either the municipal or Common Pleas courts as part of something like probation or such they were ordered to do.

In the first session----she would have an opening segment where the guys were allowed to freely express their reasons why they did what they did, their attitudes towards women or whatever--and when at one point---the session facilitator lead the group into a discussion of responsibility regarding sex like using contraceptives and such to potentially preventing pregnancies and wow---nearly to a man---if one said it--others would agree----they would not use rubbers because "I ain't no damn faggot, so I ain't gonna use no damn rubbers---a real man doesn't use something like rubbers!"

I later asked the director about that point and others--she said that this is a pretty commonly held view that these men have on that and the other things they raise---she said that they more or less let the guys spout off on whatever they want and in any way they want because the counselors want to more or less let them vent some anger off about their situation--and to get a measure of the attitudes, views, etc held by the guys about women, children, "what it means to be a man" and what not.

Then at the next session then go lay down some firm ground rules such as no more use of profanity and terms for women like: bitch, cunt, slut, whore, etc and surely without the nasty sorts of descriptive adjectives they used before those terms and for the rest of the sessions--- they would be used to try to instill some "retraining" regarding the attitudes these men have about women and other related issues to something more in line with what the rest of us tend to hold.

I did think it really was such an ignorant view these guys tended to hold when it came to HIV/AIDS ONLY being something "Fags" got and that "real (hetero) men" couldn't get and didn't have to worry about!! Of course--kind of enlightening that they also held many other pretty ignorant views--like when even though they might be the ones to push, putting it mildly, a woman to have sex--that if "the bitch got pregnant--then that is her damn fault since she was a slut!" Sorta funny too---they blamed the woman for getting preggers, but along with not using a rubber because "real men" don't use them since it's is the role of a "Real Man" to get women pregnant--just in many cases, if they aren't married or long term partnered with a woman--they sure as hell don't want to take any financial or other sorts of responsibility for the kids they sire, and man---can these "dudes" and their "old ladies" can sure make tons of kids!!!!! Of course, even if they are married to the women or in a "common law marriage" as they used to say--many of these men didn't often want to take care of those children either.

There sure is some incredibly stupid and ignorant thinking still remaining by many people out there!!

When you see things like this for real, with your own eyes and take it in your mind---it sort of makes ya think---"What universe do I live in or they do??"

I always sorta had that feeling as well when I worked in Probation/Parole or in recent years when I have served on juries and see all the sorts of things the courts deal with everyday as a matter of course.

[BiDaveDtown]

There sure is some incredibly stupid and ignorant thinking still remaining by many people out there!!

You're in Ohio. What do you expect? The idea that bisexual and gay men are somehow majorly at risk for HIV or are mostly all HIV+, and that heterosexual people are less at risk and have lower numbers of HIV+ people borders on 80s HIV/AIDS paranoia and it's based on homophobia and biphobia, and it's not true. If you look at the number of people worldwide who have died of AIDS or who are living with HIV/AIDS most of them are heterosexual and were infected by heterosexual sex.

[tenni]

Gear
How does a person identify a bisexual man in a gay bar without asking? Most men in a gay bar are probably gay or bisexual cismales. Do bisexuals have red B on their forehead? Of course not. If the poster is "out" in his geographic community does he present himself for the niche category that he is? Intersexed, asexual non cismale who see himself as bisexual.

Gear
In order for a interesexed asexual self identifying bisexual non cismale to know whether gay cismen or bi cismen are sluttier, wouldn't he have to actually have sex with a lot of cismales? Doesn't that counter the asexual aspects? A barman doesn't know who is having sex outside of the bar and in particular why would an asexual be even interested?

[DuckiesDarling]

Tenni, editing your posts to try and lessen your outright personal attacks on a person does not mean that others didn't already see them. What I see is a very bitter closeted, by his own admission, mostly gay, by his own admission, male artist from Burlington, Ontario Canada trying to say that a male member of this site who has had full on sex with both genders for more than 20 years is not a real bisexual male. You would do better to just have both of us on ignore and not try to be snippy with your posts by directing comments to others as it only proves you have a problem with with LDD and me. You lose everytime you come after us and prove your ignorance to the rest of the site. Is it any wonder most of the posters simply ignore you and your comments now? It's getting old, Tenni. Very old. You continue coming after me and my beloved cismale partner and I will report you every single time to Drew. We support this site with our donations, we support the site with our presence. He is openly out and VISIBLE in his community as a pansexual/bisexual male who has the time to listen to friends and help with issues that arise. He supports many LGBT businesses and he was heavily involved in getting the civil union bill passed in New Zealand by uniting people that would normally fight tooth and nail against LGBT rights by helping them see it wasn't just LGBT it was for all sexualities. What have you done besides post on a a forum that others should be out and visible when you yourself are not? Now if you want to continue your pissing contest, do so. But you only make yourself look spiteful and downright idiotic in the extreme by doing so. Now as my favorite pussy would say, Bless your little heart.

[Long Duck Dong]

That's not biphobic! That's realistic! What IS biphobic is making out that bi's are the only ones with wonky halos.
As you should know from being in a gaybar, being bisexual and liking both genders doesn't mean that bi's get double the dose of sex partners. Promiscuous Gays, lesbians and hetero's are just as promiscuous, if not more so.

So sitting in a gaybar is doing something to change the image of bisexuality? To gays?
The 'real' image of bi's is the loud flamboyant kind that hangs around gaybars, and the closeted bi's on this site are fakes?

Really LDD, you get your perspective of bi visibility from gaybars? You do realise that not ALL bi's or gays are on the 'gay scene' or want to be either?
And being visible hasn't done out gays&lesbians any favours on the viewed as promiscuous front either. You don't need both genders to be dangerous, as you should know from your interaction with the non bi clientèle. You don't seem to remember that when you post on here though. Are you worried that your gay 'non-bitchy' friends will read what you say?

Go on! Be honest! Who's the sluttiest? Bi's or gays?

who is the most sluttiest ???? honestly.... its the person that wants sex the most and does anything for it, with anybody..... as for the sexuality of that person.... mmmm not sure on that one....

most people that do not visit LBGT bars and this site, are not going to see what is going on in LGBT bars and this site, so their visible perspective will be more limited than yours or mine..... so they may only have the LGBT parades, and the bits in the news like the gay males at rabbit island that insist that having sex in public in front of young child is fine ( its actually illegal, its indecent exposure )..... or they may be blessed to have a person in their family that is LGBT and gives them a personal perspective of a LGBT person, or they have have LGBT friends..... etc etc

the real image of bis are the bisexuals themselves, its why bisexuality, like any other sexuality, is so diverse......but its the *false * image of bisexuality that is the one that portrays bisexuals as people that are promiscuous people that can not be faithful or monogamous, which is not true of a lot of bisexuals and even the ones that are not monogamous, are still doing it with the permission, understanding and often the participation of their partners..... and the false image, is often the more visible image....

a example is this... take a straight acting gay, a straight acting bi, a hetero drag queen, a gay / bi drag queen and get them to walk down the road together..... most people will see the drag queens as their behievour stands out as so different to the * normal * behievour...... so the straight acting people are going to be near invisible, and closeted / discreet people are the same, they are not as visible as those whom stand out........

plus my perspective of bi visibility comes from being out in the community and one of the people that helps run and own LGBT businesses and is constantly finding that gay, les, trans and straight people are fine to work with, they are more realistic in what they want and how to get it... but most of the bi people are a pain in the ass to work with....IE the nz bi community web site, still 3 years out of dates.... the NZ gay NZ is updated every day ( nearly ).... and the bisexual community can not keep making excuses, cos they are the ones with the power to make a difference.... IE DJones in this site, created the NY BI group and social meeting group.... he saw a need, he put it out there and made it work.........and that makes bis just that lil more visible to people........


I am well aware of what I said and posted, very well aware, and as I have said before, if BISEXUALS stopped making excuses and stated making what they want in their communities, a reality, then it would be the bi community making a difference... instead of complaining......

hell me and my friends are working towards buying a bar in my town in order to get the LGBT a social bar to meet at.... if the bisexuals do not want to use it, fine, but the support from the les, gay, hetero and trans people has been excellent and so we are catering towards them as they are the ones that will keep the bar open.... and yes its a LGBT bar... bisexuals inclusive... not a gay bar where bisexuals go..... but it will be if the bi community continue to remain silent and complain like they have been doing.....

once again, the biggest spearhead of the whole thing, is a asexual natured, intersexed bisexual.... the person that granted civil union rights to the LGBT was a closeted lesbian asexual female....... its starting to get to the point that the asexual community is doing more for bisexuals in my country than the bisexuals themselves.....

[Gearbox]

@LDD- Hanging around in LGBT/gay bars/clubs isn't the be all and end all of sexual visibility for many. Lots of gays, lesbians, transgendered and bi's wouldn't be found dead in those places. Why? Because it's not their thing. They don't want to.
I very rarely hang around in 'straight' clubs etc and neither do many straight m&f's. It doesn't interest everybody.
Doesn't mean that it's their fault when they here here BS about them, and they lose the right to complain about it though. That's ridiculous.
Those that are 'Non Scene' are not slacking off from 'doing stuff' for their particular sexuality. They are living as THEY see fit to as themselves, and not how some 'scene' Gestapo might dictate.

Most bi's have lifestyles of the 'heterosexual' variety with husbands/wives and children. Some partnered gays and lesbians and trans do to. It is their lifestyle no matter what sexuality they are. And many would ADD to that community instead of separating into another. Which I think does more for sexualities, integrating and not separating. After all, it's not a heterosexual world.
What needs to be visible is the existence of bisexuality and not necessarily the bisexual individual. We are what we are.

Oh there are PLENTY of promiscuous bi's around having sex with promiscuous gays and straights. Plenty of cheating going on with everybody too. It would be a VERY hard competition to find out who's the sluttiest.lol

[slipnslide]

You're in Ohio. What do you expect? The idea that bisexual and gay men are somehow majorly at risk for HIV or are mostly all HIV+, and that heterosexual people are less at risk and have lower numbers of HIV+ people borders on 80s HIV/AIDS paranoia and it's based on homophobia and biphobia, and it's not true. If you look at the number of people worldwide who have died of AIDS or who are living with HIV/AIDS most of them are heterosexual and were infected by heterosexual sex.

You must factor culture and availability of condoms if you want to look at global numbers. Comparing the US to Africa is not a fair comparison for multiple reasons. In the US, the points you state as untrue, are in fact completely true - and likely for all of Western culture.

http://www.avert.org/usa-transmission-gender.htm

More guys contracted HIV in the US through MSM contact than all women COMBINED. I suspect similar numbers for Canada.

At look at Europe shows more of the same:

One study concluded that HIV diagnoses among MSM in Western and Central Europe have almost doubled since 2000.⁴² The UK witnessed the largest rise, with an increase of 91 percent between 2000 and 2006.⁴³xIt has been said that the increase in HIV diagnoses among MSM is linked to an increase in high-risk behaviour. In the 1980s HIV prevention campaigns successfully alerted people to the dangers of HIV, which accounted for a decline in the frequency of high-risk behaviours. In the 1990s the introduction of combination antiretroviral treatment turned HIV from a death sentence into a chronic disease, and it is thought that this may have created a sense of complacency and an increase in high-risk sexual activity.⁴⁴ Françoise Barré-Sinoussi, the virologist who co-discovered HIV as the cause of AIDS, claims

“...some people in my country, France, and other Western countries have become complacent – they see HIV/AIDS as a chronic disease – not as one that can kill.”⁴⁵

http://www.avert.org/aids-europe.htm

You seem to not be aware that vaginal intercourse between two heterosexuals is less likely to spread an HIV infection because of physiology. A vagina is less likely to suffer lesions allowing direct access to the blood stream than anal sex. Vaginal to penile transmission is even more difficult.

So don't be rambling on about homophobia and biphobia and then show yourself to be ignorant of the facts. You've got the Internet at your disposal. Use it!

I'm genuinely curious, is the denial of these basic facts a defense mechanism for justification of past behaviour, or is it denial for the justification of future behaviour? It is endlessly fascinating though to see people lying to themselves.

[drugstore cowboy]

vaginal intercourse between two heterosexuals is less likely to spread an HIV infection because of physiology. A vagina is less likely to suffer lesions allowing direct access to the blood stream than anal sex. Vaginal to penile transmission is even more difficult.

Not true. Just because you want to pretend and claim that it's "difficult" for heteros to become HIV+ from each other does not make the false and dangerous info that you're spreading true. My partner and I know both men and women who are heterosexual and who are HIV+ and they became HIV+ from having unprotected sex with a hetero partner. We have noticed that A LOT of heteros like to pretend that they don't have to practice safer sex, that HIV isn't something that they need to worry about at all, and that they don't need to get tested and they are still living in the 80s and have their heads in the sand pretending that HIV is something that bisexual and gay men and IV drug users only need to worry about.

[slipnslide]

The risk of HIV transmission during anal intercourse may be around 18 times greater than during vaginal intercourse, according to the results of a meta-analysis published online ahead of print in the

International Journal of Epidemiology.

http://www.aidsmap.com/HIV-transmiss.../page/1446187/

Note that I provide evidence. You provide opinion.

Plus you clearly misunderstood. No one said it was impossible for heterosexuals to contract HIV. The point was heterosexual sex is a less efficient transmission method.

[Long Duck Dong]

@LDD- Hanging around in LGBT/gay bars/clubs isn't the be all and end all of sexual visibility for many. Lots of gays, lesbians, transgendered and bi's wouldn't be found dead in those places. Why? Because it's not their thing. They don't want to.
I very rarely hang around in 'straight' clubs etc and neither do many straight m&f's. It doesn't interest everybody.
Doesn't mean that it's their fault when they here here BS about them, and they lose the right to complain about it though. That's ridiculous.
Those that are 'Non Scene' are not slacking off from 'doing stuff' for their particular sexuality. They are living as THEY see fit to as themselves, and not how some 'scene' Gestapo might dictate.

Most bi's have lifestyles of the 'heterosexual' variety with husbands/wives and children. Some partnered gays and lesbians and trans do to. It is their lifestyle no matter what sexuality they are. And many would ADD to that community instead of separating into another. Which I think does more for sexualities, integrating and not separating. After all, it's not a heterosexual world.
What needs to be visible is the existence of bisexuality and not necessarily the bisexual individual. We are what we are.

Oh there are PLENTY of promiscuous bi's around having sex with promiscuous gays and straights. Plenty of cheating going on with everybody too. It would be a VERY hard competition to find out who's the sluttiest.lol

yeah I agree..... but who is more visible, gear, the gearbox that is home with a beer and feet up.... or the gearbox that is out at a LGBT bar..... they are both visible.... the gearbox at home with a beer, is the one that may be out and more visible to friends and family than gearbox at the lgbt bar.... and could by rights, make a more powerful statement about being bi than gearbox at the bar....... but gearbox at the bar can be seen as more promiscuous than gearbox at home, cos he is going out to the bar a lot..... and that is where assumption comes into it.... gearbox may like a beer at the bar and will hook up if he is interested, rather than going to the bar to hook up and having a beer while he is hooking up.....

coming back to gearbox at the bar and gearbox at home...... you are both visible in different ways to different people, but it was both gearboxes that told me something that had happened to them, more about your sex activities than any thing else........ bloody hot food lol..... and it was that one simple statement that told me more about your activities or lack of them than anything else.......

if I had assumed that gearbox was out regularly at the bar hooking up, that one statement would have proved me totally wrong...... lol and that made you more visible to me as a person that was not doing the funky chicken every night..... and that is the same with the forum.... the image of bisexuals and what bisexuals do will be made more visible in the forums by the posters, not by the lurkers and profile surfers..... and it can be correct or incorrect for any number of bisexuals..... and yes people have the right to complain about them being seen the wrong way, but the power to correct how they are seen, lays in their hands.....

what needs to be visible is the existence of bisexuality, but the existence of bisexuality rests in the hands of the bisexuals and that is why we have the image we do... as the more visible ones are the ones being seen by the public.....and the most powerful tool we have, is ourselves......

if the LGBT communities never stood up and became visible, then we would still be pretty much invisible, but so many are very visible to friends and family and that is where we can do the greatest good or damage to the image of bisexuality.......and correct the misunderstandings they have about bisexuals or confirm them.... as we become the most visible bisexual aspect they have..... and the site is a reflection of that, the more vocal and visible posters will present the more visible image of bisexuality in the site for better or worse, but a single statement by one poster.... can change the view that people have of that bisexual...... and how hot food is hazardous to your sex life lol

btw, tell gearbox at home to get to the bar, its my round and hes late lol

[tenni]

I may be wrong but I think that a lot of bisexual men do not spend much time in Gay bars at all. If you were to do a survey in gay bars you would find men who identify as gay. Increasingly, both bisexual and gay men use a variety of approaches to meet other men for short or longer term hook ups or even relationships. The internet tends to be quite popular and acts as a social media just as this site acts that way.

Gay bars do exist for those who wish to cloister themselves in segregation to meet their needs (social or sexual). Many gay bars in larger cities are age specific and tend to market themselves for young men. Bisexual men would be wise to avoid or be cautious about a lot of sexual contact with guys who hang out in gay bars. Bisexual men should be cautious about men who frequent the baths and have multi partners under those circumstances.

People who are GLBT politically active are rarely seen as bisexual. I've found that bisexual men who do seems to have a "gay think" approach and some preaches being "out" etc. A large if not majority of bisexual men who are practising multi partner sex know what they are doing and have nothing to do with gay think spouted by the few bisexual men associating with GLBT organizations.

All of this bar chatter has nothing to do with the bigotry and high rates of HIV with MSM. It doesn't clarify whether the high rates are due to gay or bisexual men's sexual activity. It has more to do with the preaching of these "gay think" people. In all the posts no one, has presented any evidence that bisexual men are the ones and not gay men who are creating this high rate of HIV.