Feminism: One Perspective

[æonpax]

A definition of FEMINISM

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism

The term ‘feminism’ has many different uses and its meanings are often contested. For example, academics use the term ‘feminism’ to refer to a historically specific political movement in the US and Europe and others use it to refer to the belief that there are injustices against women.

The far-right most often defines a feminist as a female who “denies or downplays differences between men and women, opposes the encouragement of homemaking and child-rearing for women, and seeks to participate in predominantly male activities.” http://conservapedia.com/Feminism while those of the extreme biblical perspective see it as something that is “Evil.” http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils...sm_is_evil.htm There are also your far left women who use it as a prop for their misandry and others with emotional conflicts. Then there are those in the middle someplace. (What Rush Limbaugh says about it, is defined under the heading; “Delusional”)

********

Our LGBT group had a meeting Monday evening. Among the items discussed (I’m in Wisconsin) was the recall of Gov. Scooter Walker (which I support), the coming election of Tammy Baldwin for Wisconsin US Senator (which I support) and the re-election of Barack Obama (which I don’t support). What was new on the agenda was a proposal by some of our Gay and Bisexual male members, to get legislation introduced that will change Wisconsin’s divorce and child custody laws so that they are gender neutralized. This started a small but heated discussion involving feminism.

My take on this, which I voiced at the meeting, was simple. One cannot be for equal gender rights for just women at the expense of that same equality for men. In regards to men, in this case, gay and bi-men, many are fathers who face a double legal whammy. Archaic laws assume the female to be biologically superior as a child caregiver. Furthermore, those same antiquated laws still consider gay and bisexual men as a disqualifying factor for custody or in permanent child placement. If one is a feminist truly advocating equality, then that equality applies to all. The playing field, as they say, has to be level. Our LGBT unit must take a stand on this.

With no dissenting votes, the measure passed. Feminism is not as radical as the misinformed believe it to be.

[darkeyes]

noun
[mass noun]
the advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.
http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...ism?q=feminism

Just so u know it doesnt mean any different in the good ole UK

[Diva667]

Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. ~Cheris Kramarae and Paula Treichler

[Feminism is] a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson

I side with Cheris Kamarae on this one.... the right has as many gasbags and loudmouths as the left does , if not more.

[void()]

If one is a feminist truly advocating equality, then that equality applies to all. The playing field, as they say, has to be level. Our LGBT unit must take a stand on this.

Concur with you, although one might also say the same could apply to humanists. Equality should apply to all, simple enough.

[Jobelorocks]

I am all for equality myself. I don't like how there are different standards for men and women even if my gender has an advantage because of those standards. I for one think it is silly that when their are physical requirements for a job (like firefighters) that women have a lower standard.

[CherryBlossom74]

A definition of FEMINISM

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism

Definition of EGALITARIANISM

1 : a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic affairs
2 : a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...0&t=1327609402

Here is this one woman's perspective on the topic at hand.

The above quoted word FEMINISM shows two separate meanings. The root of the word Feminism would be Feminine which is only one side of the sexes. In other words "for the female". Nowhere in the very word itself is equality, only in the first definition is it stated. From what I have observed, on the whole, Feminists proclaim the first meaning - "equality of the sexes", but act only on the second meaning - "women's rights and interests" - exclusively.

As for it being the same definition on both sides of the pond only shows that both sides of the pond are hypocrites. Where the US penalizes women for the same infractions as men at 1/4 the same severity, England is trying to do them one better by doing away with women's prisons entirely.Where worldwide studies show that women are as capable as men or more in violence, because women draw in male cohorts to assist and absorb most of the blame, women are getting a pass based on their sex and their reproductive organs only. The best of Feminism at work. Valerie Solanas would be so proud.

Here are only a few quotes I've found on the internet in researching Feminism and how they exemplify my point:

"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." - Mary Daly (from a 2001 interview with What Is Enlightenment magazine [referencing] Mary Daly, Quintessence...Realizing the Archaic Future: A Radical Elemental Feminist Manifesto, Beacon Press, 1998)

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." - (Robin Morgan, Sisterhood Is Powerful: An Anthology of Writings from the Women's Liberation Movement, Vintage, 1970)

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in
his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." (Andrea Dworkin, Ice and Fire, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1987)

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." (Andrea Dworkin, Letters From a War Zone, Dutton Publishing, 1989)

“[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.” (Susan Brownmiller, Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape, Secker & Warburg, 1975, p. 6)

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system; eroticizing her own oppression." - Sheila Jeffrys

“Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated. You might think that's too broad. I'm not talking about sending all of you men to jail for that.” (Catherine MacKinnon, Feminism Unmodified: Discourses of Life and Law - A Rally Against Rape, Harvard University Press, 1987)

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women as a group are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." - Catherine McKinnon

"Ninety-five percent of women's experiences are about being a victim." (Jodi Foster, New York Times Magazine, January 6, 1991, p. 19)

"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be
trained to do most things." -- Jilly Cooper, SCUM (Society For Cutting
Up Men, started by Valerie Solanas)

"The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men."
-- Sharon Stone; Actress

“The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” (The Future–If There Is One–Is Female, 1982)

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the
experience. They have a lot of pain, but it is not a pain that I would have necessarily have spared them. I think it ideally initiates a process of self-exploration." - Catherine Comins

"I claim that rape exists when intercourse occurs when it is not been initiated by the woman out of her own genuine affection and desire." (Robin Morgan, Going too Far: The Personal Chronicle of a Feminist - Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape, Random House, 1974)

"All men are rapists and that's all they are." (Marilyn French, The Women’s Room, Summit Books, 1977)

"Women, though saved by the noble sacrifice of men, were in the equally hard position of having to see the ship go down." - an unnamed Suffragette when commenting on the Titanic sinking

"It cannot assumed that men are bound to be an asset to family life or that the presence of fathers in families is necessarily a means to social cohesion." - British MP and feminist Harriet Hartman

"It is now well recognized that a misplaced conception of equality has resulted in some very unequal treatment for women and girls." - Supreme Court justice Judge Baroness Hale also of the UK in her judicial order judges must now apply leniency in female sentencing.

"Women have always been the primary victims of war." - Hillary Clinton

And my favorite video showing Feminists at their best is part of an advertisement for plays put on for children in the public grade school system in Sweden. Advocating that women do their part which results in... well I'll let you watch it yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArX1hkPUMCQ

Wonderful article on Male-Bashing by feminists:

http://www.forbes.com/2011/04/26/eno...e-bashing.html

What is needed in this society, if it is to proceed into the future, is Egalitarianism, not Feminism. As stated by my insertion from the Merrian-Webster dictionary is the ideal. Equality in all that it stands for, not Women having all the privilege and none of the responsibility.

I could go on but I know that to expound on this topic any further, in a way that neither one of you would accept, would only bring the same rhetoric I've seen from the both of you that says - not in exact words but in meaning - "You don't know what you're talking about", "You misunderstood what was written", or (my favorite) "I'm not listening because you're not saying what I want you to say." et al.

As Jack Nicholson said in As Good As It Gets when asked how he writes women so well, "I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability." Now you should make this statement a lie by reason and accountability into the Feminist movement.

[pepperjack]

Definition of EGALITARIANISM

1 : a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic affairs
2 : a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...0&t=1327609402

Here is this one woman's perspective on the topic at hand.

The above quoted word FEMINISM shows two separate meanings. The root of the word Feminism would be Feminine which is only one side of the sexes. In other words "for the female". Nowhere in the very word itself is equality, only in the first definition is it stated. From what I have observed, on the whole, Feminists proclaim the first meaning - "equality of the sexes", but act only on the second meaning - "women's rights and interests" - exclusively.

As for it being the same definition on both sides of the pond only shows that both sides of the pond are hypocrites. Where the US penalizes women for the same infractions as men at 1/4 the same severity, England is trying to do them one better by doing away with women's prisons entirely.Where worldwide studies show that women are as capable as men or more in violence, because women draw in male cohorts to assist and absorb most of the blame, women are getting a pass based on their sex and their reproductive organs only. The best of Feminism at work. Valerie Solanas would be so proud.

Here are only a few quotes I've found on the internet in researching Feminism and how they exemplify my point:

"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." - Mary Daly (from a 2001 interview with What Is Enlightenment magazine [referencing] Mary Daly, Quintessence...Realizing the Archaic Future: A Radical Elemental Feminist Manifesto, Beacon Press, 1998)

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." - (Robin Morgan, Sisterhood Is Powerful: An Anthology of Writings from the Women's Liberation Movement, Vintage, 1970)

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in
his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." (Andrea Dworkin, Ice and Fire, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1987)

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." (Andrea Dworkin, Letters From a War Zone, Dutton Publishing, 1989)

“[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear.” (Susan Brownmiller, Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape, Secker & Warburg, 1975, p. 6)

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system; eroticizing her own oppression." - Sheila Jeffrys

“Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated. You might think that's too broad. I'm not talking about sending all of you men to jail for that.” (Catherine MacKinnon, Feminism Unmodified: Discourses of Life and Law - A Rally Against Rape, Harvard University Press, 1987)

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women as a group are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." - Catherine McKinnon

"Ninety-five percent of women's experiences are about being a victim." (Jodi Foster, New York Times Magazine, January 6, 1991, p. 19)

"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be
trained to do most things." -- Jilly Cooper, SCUM (Society For Cutting
Up Men, started by Valerie Solanas)

"The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men."
-- Sharon Stone; Actress

“The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” (The Future–If There Is One–Is Female, 1982)

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the
experience. They have a lot of pain, but it is not a pain that I would have necessarily have spared them. I think it ideally initiates a process of self-exploration." - Catherine Comins

"I claim that rape exists when intercourse occurs when it is not been initiated by the woman out of her own genuine affection and desire." (Robin Morgan, Going too Far: The Personal Chronicle of a Feminist - Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape, Random House, 1974)

"All men are rapists and that's all they are." (Marilyn French, The Women’s Room, Summit Books, 1977)

"Women, though saved by the noble sacrifice of men, were in the equally hard position of having to see the ship go down." - an unnamed Suffragette when commenting on the Titanic sinking

"It cannot assumed that men are bound to be an asset to family life or that the presence of fathers in families is necessarily a means to social cohesion." - British MP and feminist Harriet Hartman

"It is now well recognized that a misplaced conception of equality has resulted in some very unequal treatment for women and girls." - Supreme Court justice Judge Baroness Hale also of the UK in her judicial order judges must now apply leniency in female sentencing.

"Women have always been the primary victims of war." - Hillary Clinton

And my favorite video showing Feminists at their best is part of an advertisement for plays put on for children in the public grade school system in Sweden. Advocating that women do their part which results in... well I'll let you watch it yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArX1hkPUMCQ

Wonderful article on Male-Bashing by feminists:

http://www.forbes.com/2011/04/26/eno...e-bashing.html

What is needed in this society, if it is to proceed into the future, is Egalitarianism, not Feminism. As stated by my insertion from the Merrian-Webster dictionary is the ideal. Equality in all that it stands for, not Women having all the privilege and none of the responsibility.

I could go on but I know that to expound on this topic any further, in a way that neither one of you would accept, would only bring the same rhetoric I've seen from the both of you that says - not in exact words but in meaning - "You don't know what you're talking about", "You misunderstood what was written", or (my favorite) "I'm not listening because you're not saying what I want you to say." et al.

As Jack Nicholson said in As Good As It Gets when asked how he writes women so well, "I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability." Now you should make this statement a lie by reason and accountability into the Feminist movement.

I've been reading this post while trying to listen to the current GOP debate simultaneously; kind of tricky; but so far, I think it's dynamite. Now this is what's known as leveling the playing field!

[keefer728]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tT...eature=related


Not only is this woman extremely intelligent and sexy, but you have to see how she dismantles feminism. It really is a must see.

[IanBorthwick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tT...eature=related


Not only is this woman extremely intelligent and sexy, but you have to see how she dismantles feminism. It really is a must see.

That's one of the links I provided in another thread. I even included a bunch int he Abortion thread to make Fran feel included /sarcasm.

[æonpax]

[CENTER][I]Definition of EGALITARIANISM{snipped for brevity}

Excellent reply, a couple points however.

I titled this post, “Feminism: One Perspective” because this is my take or opinion on Feminism based on my experiences. The reason I used this phrase “A definition of FEMINISM” is because there are many of them. I also gave examples of the extremes. However the nonacademic definition of the word, in colloquial speech, is more sharply divided based on ideological mindsets.

This statement by you, “Nowhere in the very word itself is equality, only in the first definition is it stated” is interesting. Tell me, does “Conservative” mean Pro-Life/Anti-Abortion? Does “Liberal” mean Pro-Choice? Not at all, yet both sides of this issue euphemistically use those words as a ”catch-all” to define the other. Both groups are also defined by the stand they take on issues. Does this preclude that Conservatives cannot be Pro-Choice or Liberals, Pro-Life? No. Etymologically "feminist" is a French word describing the "conceptualization" of female rights and it's definition has changed many times over in the English language.

In my opinion, your voluminous list of quotes appears to be ideologically biased (see: "confirmation bias") and representative of the “old guard” generation of thought. That’s not a bad thing as there are older generation and conservative women, that are considered Feminist, which you did not quote. Laura Bush, Elizabeth Dole, Lynne Cheney, Karen Hughes, Margaret Thatcher, Christina Hoff Sommers, etc, are just a few of these prominent women whom you excluded. These women are not in “lock step” with the perceived notion of what certain people have rigidly defined as feminism. These women I mentioned, happen to be Republican and are also for gay rights and woman’s rights, including her reproductive rights. Already, the word Feminism is beginning to change. It’s just not for liberals anymore.

Can Feminists be Egalitarian ? Of course they can. There is no law that says they can’t and such is the path younger generation females are moving to. Will Egalitarianism ever replace Feminism as an active ideology? In a perfect world, yes, but this is not a perfect world and I’m a pragmatist. Fighting for and gaining rights for the female, is one thing. Safeguarding those women’s rights will take constant vigilance and those willing to defend them. In essence, there will always be a Feminist fraction in our society.

[darkeyes]

Most feminists view feminism as a step, no more than that, in the stride towards the egalitarian objective .. it is a single issue cause, similar to the cause which strives for lgbt rights and equality for which surely few here will disagree although some certainly do... we view the world as it is and see that much needs done long before we ever get near to an egalitarian world.. as a socialist egalitarianism has long been a dream and an objective. But as a pragmatist, knowing we are unable to change the world overnight, I know we must do what we can to achieve the end for which we strive in often small steps.. equality of the sexes.. no more.. no less.. to combat and eliminate inequalities which have long endured.. not to give us superior rights to men, merely to enhance those we have and as has been said provide a level playing field for all human beings..

..sometimes we know that occasionally, where the rights of the woman legally, socially, economically and culturally are considered superior to those of the male, we believe in surrendering our dominant position for it would be hypocrisy not to.. certainly sometimes there are differences of opinion between not only men and women, but women themselves just what that means and some issues will require to be resolved and in time will be, but the fact is that in the vast majority of instances it is the male who has always held the upper hand... we have now reached the point in western societies where we are deemed equal to men, yet legal inequalities still exist and these have to be dealt with.. socially economically and culturally they still exist and will continue to do so for decades to come.. but change is being made even if, as is occuring in this country now women are the ones suffering the greatest hardships due to the recession and the policies of the British government..

æon mentioned Margaret Thatcher in her post.. I am quite sure that few British feminists consider her as feminist since she did nothing to enhance women's rights over her term of office and indeed arguably put the gear of equality for women into reverse.. she also was also no friend to gay and lesbian people.. but there are right wing feminsists out there, and many who have no political affiliation... feminism like any form of human activity will have differences within its ranks... that right wing feminists are viewed with suspicion by many of us is natural for those all too often hold opinions which have little to do with equality and nothing to do with any march towards egalitarianism...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...tory-feminists

I, like Cherry can trawl the net and come up with dozens, hundreds of quotes from feminists in support of my arguments.. several of Cherry's quotes, such as Harriet Harman's I happen to agree with, not out of a wish to be superior to the male but because it is an accurate statement of many family problems in this country.. it was not a condemnation of the male but that some are troublesome.. and I do not deny that some women are also but these are far fewer in number.. the point I make is that comments made by many people do not always prove our case nor are they quite saying what we wish them to say.. context is important. I could also produce umpteen little vids in support of the feminist cause.. it is a great thing the net, but what it contains is not all one way.. we choose its content and post it for our purposes which is in part why I dont make as much use of it as I otherwise could....

Feminism is ridiculed by many, not all men, as is any ideology or cause which seeks to challenge the status quo.. the privileged do like their privileges..and ridicule is a good way to undermine any cause.. as is misrepresenting it's aims.. those under threat are always unscrupulous at defending their position and often enlist in support of them many of those for whom the cause was established in the first place.. the conned, the gullible.. the uneducated.. the conservatives among us frightened of the changes which the cause wishes to see..

I prefer the Oxford English Dictionary to Webster for the purpose of defining feminism.. that leaves far less doubt as to what feminism is... it is not about egalitarianism at all... but it is about recognising that in our society there are inequalities which need to be addressed and to take steps to do so.. for all.. not just women.. for me it is but a small step in the move towards egalitarianism.. nothing more for if we are unable to resolve the gender inequalities between men and women, egalitarianism is but a pipedream.....

[void()]

1 : a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic affairs
2 : a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...0&t=1327609402

Interesting to find out I'm defined. *chuckle*

[IanBorthwick]

Excellent reply, a couple points however.

I titled this post, “Feminism: One Perspective” because this is my take or opinion on Feminism based on my experiences. The reason I used this phrase “A definition of FEMINISM” is because there are many of them. I also gave examples of the extremes. However the nonacademic definition of the word, in colloquial speech, is more sharply divided based on ideological mindsets.

This statement by you, “Nowhere in the very word itself is equality, only in the first definition is it stated” is interesting. Tell me, does “Conservative” mean Pro-Life/Anti-Abortion? Does “Liberal” mean Pro-Choice? Not at all, yet both sides of this issue euphemistically use those words as a ”catch-all” to define the other. Both groups are also defined by the stand they take on issues. Does this preclude that Conservatives cannot be Pro-Choice or Liberals, Pro-Life? No. Etymologically "feminist" is a French word describing the "conceptualization" of female rights and it's definition has changed many times over in the English language.

In my opinion, your voluminous list of quotes appears to be ideologically biased (see: "confirmation bias") and representative of the “old guard” generation of thought. That’s not a bad thing as there are older generation and conservative women, that are considered Feminist, which you did not quote. Laura Bush, Elizabeth Dole, Lynne Cheney, Karen Hughes, Margaret Thatcher, Christina Hoff Sommers, etc, are just a few of these prominent women whom you excluded. These women are not in “lock step” with the perceived notion of what certain people have rigidly defined as feminism. These women I mentioned, happen to be Republican and are also for gay rights and woman’s rights, including her reproductive rights. Already, the word Feminism is beginning to change. It’s just not for liberals anymore.

Can Feminists be Egalitarian ? Of course they can. There is no law that says they can’t and such is the path younger generation females are moving to. Will Egalitarianism ever replace Feminism as an active ideology? In a perfect world, yes, but this is not a perfect world and I’m a pragmatist. Fighting for and gaining rights for the female, is one thing. Safeguarding those women’s rights will take constant vigilance and those willing to defend them. In essence, there will always be a Feminist fraction in our society.

And THIS, my friends, is the pathetic attempt to rebrand feminism and escape the responsibility for their past and actions. Now let's all wave to the fembot as she tries again and fails to put happy faces on a hate movement.

Smile and wave boys....

Smile and wave.

[darkeyes]

Smile and wave boys....

This bit tells me a lot... do u enjoy being bitter and twisted or can anyone join in?

[keefer728]

I like how Aeon has appointed herself the cultural moderator here. In reality, all she has provided is a forum for the likes of Darkeyes to become totally unstrung and a few girlymen to fully identify themselves. Keep up the good work, Aeon, because I believe in a few months we may see you on the news in a ball of flames (with reams of google print outs in your hands) as you take to the capitol steps in protest.

[darkeyes]

I like how Aeon has appointed herself the cultural moderator here. In reality, all she has provided is a forum for the likes of Darkeyes to become totally unstrung and a few girlymen to fully identify themselves.

*laffs* I really do think you should look up what unstrung means Keefer.. and æon will answer for herself if she so chooses.. and the lil bit I have emboldened tells us a lot about u too...pretty offensive dont u think??? Mind u... so many of ur comments are by invariably spouting bile about all sorts of things you dont like very much.. another tactic of the misogynist.. accuse the opposition of being nuts... zilch out of 100 for content -50 for sloppy "thinking".. u really must do better than that..

Fear not Keefer.. Fran is out tonight gallivanting and having fun wiv 'er m8s... so from 'bout haff 7 or 8 tonite till tomoz mornin' sometime u have free reign.. enjoy the peace..

[IanBorthwick]

I like how Aeon has appointed herself the cultural moderator here. In reality, all she has provided is a forum for the likes of Darkeyes to become totally unstrung and a few girlymen to fully identify themselves. Keep up the good work, Aeon, because I believe in a few months we may see you on the news in a ball of flames (with reams of google print outs in your hands) as you take to the capitol steps in protest.

Better HER than the oppressed men kept down by feminist jurisprudence....

Like Thomas J Ball, who was kangaroo'd through courts and still couldn't see his children...but he REALLY burned himself to death and the media REALLY ignored it.

http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/23...urthouse-steps

The fact is, however, that Aeon keeps avoiding reality, including calling the people CherryBlossom quoted as being "Outdated" as if 3 months ago or a year ago is outdated. Blows the mind. What really bakes your noodle is the fact that she completely ignored the Agent Orange link I put down in another thread. These ladies are discussing male genocide, male baby infanticide, eugenics and worse...one lady is a social worker talking about how she wants to throw a boy in her CARE through a closed window!

http://agentorangefiles.com/

GO ahead and take a look, Aeon! These are your CONTEMPORARIES! This is feminism TODAY! Discussed in the hiding holes left for them on the internet because men are tired...we're sick to death of being treated like a walking resource, made to build the world we are not allowed to enjoy.

We're sick of your rebranding, and claiming NAFALT(Not All Feminists Are Like That), without a single iota of understanding in your mind that this is what you are backing!

Saying they are not like that anymore(delusional, seek help) by playing word games is easily flayed open for easy viewing without the societal training made to blind us to the reality of your rhetoric in the following:

"Todays Nazi party is not like that anymore! Don't be silly! That was the 1930's/1940's Nazi Party! We are better than that NOW! We even have half the Calories but with all the Fascist FUll Flavor in EVERY Can! Now with half the guilt for our past! And we promise to be better in the future!"

The Agent Orange FIles show that's Bullshit! Famous attorneys in hiding, doctors, social workers, mothers, and MORE are all discussing for all the world to SEE on those Screen Caps of the RadFemHub the things I mentioned! Baby Boy Killing! Population Control! Injuring and killing BOYS for simply being BOYS!

And you ignored my video on the other Thread too! The one that is a year old...A YEAR OLD! based on the SCUM Manifesto, this is now being taught IN GRADE SCHOOLS in Sweden! It's part of the Curriculum you histrionic spouting fembot! This is happening, NOW!


Please, to all my MRA friends out there, please watch this video! I have linked many and I know most are being ignored, but they are important and each one is crucial to the points I am making. I don't expect Fran or Aeon to get a pair and watch them, these are for YOU!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArX1hkPUMCQ

Watch it! See the message at the end AFTER they murder a man in cold blood and dance around, licking his bullet hole? It says DO YOUR PART! WHAT IS DOING YOUR PART GOING TO ENTAIL, AEON? Are you going to rebrand this call to violence, and the ones on the internet and think we're taking you seriously? Only now are we to be included as far as your concerned because you see there is some MINOR misandry in the Feminist Movement? That somehow the needs of women are the needs of the world and you can change the reality of the pedigree into which you have immersed yourself?

Sorry, Aeon, better than you have tried.

History defines you, you do not get that right. Time to leave the movement if you find it stinks. I can go on all day, I know others can, too. My advice, though you won't take it:

"If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas."

And if not all Feminists are like that, then prove it.

[CherryBlossom74]

Excellent reply, a couple points however.

I titled this post, “Feminism: One Perspective” because this is my take or opinion on Feminism based on my experiences. The reason I used this phrase “A definition of FEMINISM” is because there are many of them. I also gave examples of the extremes. However the nonacademic definition of the word, in colloquial speech, is more sharply divided based on ideological mindsets.

Thank you for your compliment, but I also have a couple of points I'd like to make - aka MY PERSPECTIVE - on your rebuttal.

I included the definition of Egalitarian, from the same source you received your posted definition of Feminism, at the top of my post to show the difference between the two ideologies. The reason for including this definition is because I wanted to show that what you were saying about Feminism and striving for equal rights was not, grammatically speaking, correct.

This statement by you, “Nowhere in the very word itself is equality, only in the first definition is it stated” is interesting. Tell me, does “Conservative” mean Pro-Life/Anti-Abortion? Does “Liberal” mean Pro-Choice? Not at all, yet both sides of this issue euphemistically use those words as a ”catch-all” to define the other. Both groups are also defined by the stand they take on issues. Does this preclude that Conservatives cannot be Pro-Choice or Liberals, Pro-Life? No. Etymologically "feminist" is a French word describing the "conceptualization" of female rights and it's definition has changed many times over in the English language.

Definition of FEMININE

(noun)
1 a : a noun, pronoun, adjective, or inflectional form or class of the feminine gender
b : the feminine gender
2 : the embodiment or conception of a timeless or idealized feminine nature

(adjective)
1 : FEMALE 1a(1) http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/female
2 : characteristic of or appropriate or unique to women <feminine beauty> <a feminine perspective>
3 : of, relating to, or constituting the gender that ordinarily includes most words or grammatical forms referring to females <a feminine noun>

In my previous statement I said, "The root of the word Feminism would be Feminine which is only one side of the sexes. In other words 'for the female'. Nowhere in the very word itself is equality, only in the first definition is it state." Grammatically I am pretty much on point; FEMINISM=FEMININE=FEMALE.

"Conservative is a political and social philosophy that promotes the maintenance of traditional institutions and supports, at the most, minimal and gradual change in society." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism According the Wikipedia link listed, there is at least one group that is very much Pro-Life/Anti-Abortion, Eagle Forum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Forum, as well as Libertarian Conservatism, and Cultural and Social Conservatism. As for if "Liberal" means Pro-Choice, the closest I can say is that "Besides liberty, liberals have developed several other principles important to the construction of their philosophical structure, such as equality, pluralism, and toleration." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism Also, see the following article that expounds on this issue further: http://themoderatevoice.com/33805/de...ntury-america/ So, to answer your question, yes Conservative means Pro-Life/Anti-Abortion but "Liberal" is only used as a derogatory statement by conservatives "to associate it with gay marriage, abortion rights, big government spending deficits (as apposed to the huge tax-cut deficits under Republican administrations) and government intervention in various private industries (which many began in the Bush Administration)."

As for your statement "it's definition has changed many times over in the English language" is only partially true. How it is perceived has changed but it's grammatical definition hasn't. So, "open mouth, insert foot." It's ideology changed from not-so-good (see World War I history regarding White Feathers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_f...l_of_cowardice - women's guilt trips on men who didn't see the point on dying for something that had nothing to do with taking care of their families - all the while women demanding the right to vote before ALL men had that same right http://www.infoplease.com/timelines/voting.html) to worse (see the information regarding RadFemHub http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism...hate-movement/ which showcases MODERN, MAINSTREAM women voicing their viewpoint that not only are men NOT equal but should be destroyed). By MY PERSPECTIVE, Feminists have gone from "Whiny Little Girl" to "Diva" (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=diva Definition #2).

So, you tell me where in all of this does FEMINISM mean EQUALITY? NOWHERE, NOT ONE SINGLE PART OF ANY OF IT. The Feminist movement, as it stands now and becoming more so day by day, in MY PERSPECTIVE seems to be only about Women's rights, Women's privileges, Women's sanctification, as well as Men's Lack of rights, Men's denigration, Men's vilification; not one bit about equality.

In my opinion, your voluminous list of quotes appears to be ideologically biased (see: "confirmation bias") and representative of the “old guard” generation of thought. That’s not a bad thing as there are older generation and conservative women, that are considered Feminist, which you did not quote. Laura Bush, Elizabeth Dole, Lynne Cheney, Karen Hughes, Margaret Thatcher, Christina Hoff Sommers, etc, are just a few of these prominent women whom you excluded. These women are not in “lock step” with the perceived notion of what certain people have rigidly defined as feminism. These women I mentioned, happen to be Republican and are also for gay rights and woman’s rights, including her reproductive rights. Already, the word Feminism is beginning to change. It’s just not for liberals anymore.

Those quotes you point out as being ideologically biased were only a small snippet of quotes easily found searching the internet, quotes that have been compiled by different people at different times. Not ones I found that fit the stereotype of Feminists, but fit the underlying current that is Feminism today. http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/lgb.asp

Also I'd like to point out another website that was pointed out on a previous thread here. http://agentorangefiles.com/ As is stated on the opening page "Once you see what feminism really is - you cannot unsee." What you download from this webpage shows you EXACTLY what Feminism is about TODAY. And an article that corresponds to this page (http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism...hate-movement/ which I have already listed above) can give you more insight into this whole RadFemHub business. Have fun, enjoy.

As for the women you've noted (Laura Bush, Elizabeth Dole, Lynne Cheney, Karen Hughes, Margaret Thatcher, Christina Hoff Sommers) I've spent the last 9 hours trying to find any quote - starting with Laura Bush and Lynne Cheney - these ladies would have said about them being Feminists, or Feminists quotes from them, and I have come up little to nothing. Here is my findings so far:

Laura Bush - no quote. The closest I've found was an article (http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/story...1#.TyMlRvm0D1E) that made mention of her saying she's a Feminist on some talk show but I've been unable to find a clip or transcript of that talk show episode. And I've searched multiple (read more than 10) different links for anything belonging to her words... nada.

Elizabeth Dole - "We aim to give a 'wake-up call' to businesses, to alert them to the fact that the next 'fair-haired boy' of their organization just might be a woman." Okay, not threatening, but still Feminist (aka - "for the female") not Egalitarian. And, mind you, this quote is not listed on any Feminist website.

Lynne Cheney - nothing.

Karen Hughes - nothing.

I could list the remaining ones but just so you know I went to several Feminist quote websites and none of them had quotes from any of the ladies you mentioned. If you have any quotes to back up your statement that these women are Feminists and have added to the long list of Feminist quotes please share, show some evidence on your perspective please.

Can Feminists be Egalitarian ? Of course they can. There is no law that says they can’t and such is the path younger generation females are moving to. Will Egalitarianism ever replace Feminism as an active ideology? In a perfect world, yes, but this is not a perfect world and I’m a pragmatist. Fighting for and gaining rights for the female, is one thing. Safeguarding those women’s rights will take constant vigilance and those willing to defend them. In essence, there will always be a Feminist fraction in our society.

Can a Feminist be Egalitarian? If they could then they wouldn't be a Feminist. It's not a matter of law but a matter of logic. If you're a Feminist you are for Women's rights and interests. If you're an Egalitarian you are for Human rights and interests, with no discernment between the male or female just human. In a perfect world, yes, Egalitarianism should be the norm for ALL HUMANS, but I am ALSO a REALIST.

Fighting for and gaining rights for ALL - regardless of their sex, race, religion, etc - is PARAMOUNT, not the rights of one segment alone. Safeguarding ONLY women's rights is selfish on any woman's part and asking others to defend only a woman's rights is they highest form of selfishness that I can think of. Women are humans yes, but Men are too; they are not here only to do the bidding of Women, they are not the lesser of the species, they are not fodder for women's benefit.

I see the world without the rose-colored blinders that Feminists insists we all wear. Just as another female that I find quite refreshing in this world who has several videos posted to YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/user/girlwrit...?feature=watch I recommend that all should watch her videos so that their blinders should also removed.

That's all I have to say as it's dinner time. I'm pretty sure there's going to be more "interesting" replies and rebuttals to my above post so I'm sure I'll be back to once again.

[æonpax]

{snip/unsnip}
æon mentioned Margaret Thatcher in her post.. I am quite sure that few British feminists consider her as feminist since she did nothing to enhance women's rights over her term of office and indeed arguably put the gear of equality for women into reverse.. {snip}

Correct. The Iron Lady did not belong in this particular list but as you said, she is a role model for other women, aside from her political beliefs.

[æonpax]

[FONT="Arial"]Thank you for your compliment, but I also have a couple of points I'd like to make - aka MY PERSPECTIVE - on your rebuttal.<snip>

I should have asked this from the start but, What's your point? What are you trying to say or prove? Specifically, what about my original post do you object to? The wording? Semantics?

As far as your opinion on Female/Feminine/Feminist, that's your opinion. In etymology, this word ultimately comes from Latin féminīnus, from fémina meaning woman. The first recorded English use of the word Feminist as a concept was in 1894, and that came from the French féministe (1872). Like many words in English, it changes meaning...take the word gay for example. Fortunately, the English language does not have to follow strict ideological rules.

Read closely, you missed something..."that are considered Feminist"...The fact that many women do (including me) and you don't, consider some women to be "feminist models", is irrelevant. It's your opinion but doesn't change the facts.

Laura Bush:
"First Lady Laura Bush identified herself as a "feminist" in an interview to air on "This Week with George Stephanopoulos," tacitly agreeing with noted historian Carl Anthony, who has suggested her efforts to educate women in all parts of the world have sparked a new kind of "international feminism." - http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/story?id=1958599

"Laura Bush Supports a Woman's Right to Choose" (and Gay Rights) - http://news.change.org/stories/laura...ight-to-choose

Elizabeth Dole:
Here are some quotes about Elizabeth Dole and Women's Rights; http://womenshistory.about.com/od/qu...abeth_dole.htm

Here's an interesting article by feminists about Elizabeth Dole and why they support her; http://www.feminist.com/resources/ar.../poli/dole.htm

I think I made my point. Fortunately, what is considered as being Feminist is not dependent on your or even my definition. It seems however, you missed the crux of my thread; It's a narrative written to make a point, not academic paper, not a dissertation or an argument. It's about equal rights for women and men and an example of the changing ideology of feminism.

[æonpax]

This bit tells me a lot... do u enjoy being bitter and twisted or can anyone join in?

It's an age thing, no doubt, but also a good barometer to measure the resistance to change. The word that comes to my mind is "morose."

[darkeyes]

As for the women you've noted (Laura Bush, Elizabeth Dole, Lynne Cheney, Karen Hughes, Margaret Thatcher, Christina Hoff Sommers) I've spent the last 9 hours trying to find any quote - starting with Laura Bush and Lynne Cheney..

A tadge excessive isnt it? This a short lived rather casual debate, not the trial of the century... I would watch myself if I were you or the word paranoia might pop into peeps heads...

[æonpax]

A tadge excessive isnt it? This a short lived rather casual debate, not the trial of the century... I would watch myself if I were you or the word paranoia might pop into peeps heads...

I saw that "9 hour" thing and surmised it was hyperbole. No one in their right mind would spend anymore than a few minutes on an internet discussion.

Hey, check out this new article published yesterday; A New Generation of Feminists - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya...b_1236865.html

BTW, here's an old axiom I learned from experience;

[darkeyes]

Far be it for me to put a damper on the hopes of some, but one thing I have noticed about kids entering high school.. there is far more awareness of feminist issues among 12yo girls than was ever the case when I was that age.. they dont take crap out of the lads and while they still fawn over them very often, it isnt quite as was when I first went to high school.. the boys are still dorky and hold much the same opinions as boys did when I was 12, but what is truly heartening is this...

.. as lads go through high school there is a sea change in the way they view girls and think of themselves and their historical gender superiority.. they begin to think as they mature and many, not all by any means, but far more than when I was a school pupil, begin to see the folly of the ways of the past.. they listen more to the cares and concerns of girls at an earlier age than any guys I knew at high school.. they accept more readily the equality of their female peers and indeed women generally.. they accept the need for equality.. by the time they are 18, should they have remained at school that long, most, not all, are as feminist in attitude as girls of the same age...

This is as much to do with what they are taught as well as how they are taught and gleaning from the world around them than any home education, for many are from very traditional backgrounds where old fashioned values and gender roles are the norm.. more than once have I heard a boy of remarkably tender years say that his father is an old sexist whose attitudes went out with the ark..

This sea change is not universal.. and there are still boys (and girls for that matter) who hold to the old fashioned ways of thinking... but compared to when I left school in 1998, it is a breath of fresh air which fills me with real hope.. they may not be the finished article and still have a great deal to learn, but misogyny among boys leaving school is far less common now than a dozen and more years ago..

Women played their part in this change, but in a male dominated political arena, it is men who are at least as much to be applauded and arguably more so for surrendering much of their advantage... but most of all it is the youth and the male youth I accredit most for their open mindedness, modern and forward thinking.. so yes.. you could say I have great hopes for the next decade or so...

[CherryBlossom74]

Okay, looking at all the backwash the two of you are spitting, let me make a couple of comments.

This is a thread about Feminism and perspective; you gave yours, I gave mine. Next thing I know I see the two of you SPIT SPIT SPIT as if anybody else's perspective was phooey. Get over yourselves. You are not the only women on this forum, yours aren't the only perspective. Next time you want to spit at someone for holding a different perspective than yourself, PLEASE DON'T. It's not only rude but shows you to be very selfish and childish.

Now, about that bit about Laura Bush. I saw that article that said she'd SAID she's a Feminist, and I believe that I had added the link; my point was I COULDN'T FIND THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE/VIDEO BACKING IT UP. Nor was I able to find any quotes on any website specifically from her stating any Feminist views that pertained to modern society. Nor was I able to find any Feminist quotes for the women you mentioned, other than that one that could/couldn't be seen as Feminist by Elizabeth Dole. As for them being your role model, I don't doubt; just next time don't couch your worship in terms of having documented evidence that they truly are what you say they are.

That website you quoted about Elizabeth Dole was one that I saw but once again I will reiterate that the quotes there do not, IN MY PERSPECTIVE, say anything remotely Feminist. That first quote, "Women share with men the need for personal success, even the taste of power, and no longer are we willing to satisfy those needs through the achievements of surrogates, whether husbands, children, or merely role models." Is close but ISN'T FEMINIST BY DEFINITION. It only holds moderate (aka WEAK, not "middle of the road") Feminist rhetoric but more in tune with Egalitarian views which is why I didn't include it. The rest do not mention women specifically so they couldn't be considered Feminist, except for MAYBE the quote I had mentioned in MY OWN EARLIER POST.

Also, Feminists say they are about equality but in actuality are only about themselves (aka Women); from all I've looked through, from the impression received via visual media, is that it's at the expense of the Male. That's not equality. So, yes IN PART it's a matter of semantics but it's a whole lot more than that. I'm trying to show you (aka the entire forum) just how Feminism, IN MY PERSPECTIVE, is no longer necessary and actually should be REPLACED with HUMANISM/EGALITARIANISM/true equal rights (and consequences) for ALL.

The whole "9 hour" thing was certainly NOT a hyperbole or anything of the kind. I ACTUALLY TRIED TO VERIFY YOUR CLAIMS THAT THE WOMEN YOU MENTIONED DID MAKE ANY KIND OF QUOTE ABOUT THEIR FEMINIST VIEWPOINT. I didn't just start typing to be SPITTING words onto the forum; I actually put thought into what I wanted to say. And I have nothing further to say on that part.

So let me say that I don't argue that you have your opinion as to what Feminist means. I am merely giving my viewpoint as to what Feminist means to me. Since this is an OPEN forum it can only be assumed that your reason for starting any kind of thread was so that others in the group could actually post their pros/cons for the subject at hand. If you didn't mean for others to actually have DIFFERENT viewpoints than yourself you should have done something to either hinder EVERYBODY from adding to your post or actually posted it someplace else.

And hopefully finally, as to why I think 12-year-old girls are more aware of Feminism today than say 10 years ago, all I can say is because it appears to me that laws written today are biased in favor of women. For example, even though statistically men are raped (by either men or women) than women the law only sees fit to punish the men - who cares that a large portion of the rape reported by women are FALSE. If a man who is raped reports it they are usually told to "Man up", "feel lucky someone actually wanted to do your sorry ass", etc. Get the picture? Another example, a study I once read on the internet (don't recall where I'd read it), showed that when a baby girl cries they are consoled/taken care of several minutes faster than when a baby boy cries. Oh, have you ever noticed when in say a shopping mall a mother walking down the hallway holding her son's hand and he's crying what the mother is doing/saying to the boy? Things like "Stop crying, be a man" "Man up" "Stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about" all the while dragging him along. But if the child's a girl? I've actually seen where the family leaves a toy store and doesn't buy a particular toy the girl wanted; the mother doesn't pull the girl along and tell her "Stop crying, big girls don't cry" or anything of the sort - the mother picks up the girl and starts talking gently in her ear, things like "Don't cry I'll get you something better" "How about an ice cream?" Give me a break.

I'm not going to go too much into the political argument. As for men dominating politics I don't doubt, and it's some or the majority of those men writing the legislation geared to coddle women; the only thing I can say about that is that it seems to me that these poor men are continuing the practice of men's slavery. That's as far as I go in that and if pushed I will detail as to what I mean by that. :D

I've got to go. Hopefully I don't need to defend myself any further... hopefully I don't need to get a towel to wipe off the spittle.

[void()]

Okay, looking at all the backwash the two of you are spitting, let me make a couple of comments.

This is a thread about Feminism and perspective; you gave yours, I gave mine. Next thing I know I see the two of you SPIT SPIT SPIT as if anybody else's perspective was phooey. Get over yourselves. You are not the only women on this forum, yours aren't the only perspective. Next time you want to spit at someone for holding a different perspective than yourself, PLEASE DON'T. It's not only rude but shows you to be very selfish and childish.

Now, about that bit about Laura Bush. I saw that article that said she'd SAID she's a Feminist, and I believe that I had added the link; my point was I COULDN'T FIND THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE/VIDEO BACKING IT UP. Nor was I able to find any quotes on any website specifically from her stating any Feminist views that pertained to modern society. Nor was I able to find any Feminist quotes for the women you mentioned, other than that one that could/couldn't be seen as Feminist by Elizabeth Dole. As for them being your role model, I don't doubt; just next time don't couch your worship in terms of having documented evidence that they truly are what you say they are.

That website you quoted about Elizabeth Dole was one that I saw but once again I will reiterate that the quotes there do not, IN MY PERSPECTIVE, say anything remotely Feminist. That first quote, "Women share with men the need for personal success, even the taste of power, and no longer are we willing to satisfy those needs through the achievements of surrogates, whether husbands, children, or merely role models." Is close but ISN'T FEMINIST BY DEFINITION. It only holds moderate (aka WEAK, not "middle of the road") Feminist rhetoric but more in tune with Egalitarian views which is why I didn't include it. The rest do not mention women specifically so they couldn't be considered Feminist, except for MAYBE the quote I had mentioned in MY OWN EARLIER POST.

Also, Feminists say they are about equality but in actuality are only about themselves (aka Women); from all I've looked through, from the impression received via visual media, is that it's at the expense of the Male. That's not equality. So, yes IN PART it's a matter of semantics but it's a whole lot more than that. I'm trying to show you (aka the entire forum) just how Feminism, IN MY PERSPECTIVE, is no longer necessary and actually should be REPLACED with HUMANISM/EGALITARIANISM/true equal rights (and consequences) for ALL.

The whole "9 hour" thing was certainly NOT a hyperbole or anything of the kind. I ACTUALLY TRIED TO VERIFY YOUR CLAIMS THAT THE WOMEN YOU MENTIONED DID MAKE ANY KIND OF QUOTE ABOUT THEIR FEMINIST VIEWPOINT. I didn't just start typing to be SPITTING words onto the forum; I actually put thought into what I wanted to say. And I have nothing further to say on that part.

So let me say that I don't argue that you have your opinion as to what Feminist means. I am merely giving my viewpoint as to what Feminist means to me. Since this is an OPEN forum it can only be assumed that your reason for starting any kind of thread was so that others in the group could actually post their pros/cons for the subject at hand. If you didn't mean for others to actually have DIFFERENT viewpoints than yourself you should have done something to either hinder EVERYBODY from adding to your post or actually posted it someplace else.

And hopefully finally, as to why I think 12-year-old girls are more aware of Feminism today than say 10 years ago, all I can say is because it appears to me that laws written today are biased in favor of women. For example, even though statistically men are raped (by either men or women) than women the law only sees fit to punish the men - who cares that a large portion of the rape reported by women are FALSE. If a man who is raped reports it they are usually told to "Man up", "feel lucky someone actually wanted to do your sorry ass", etc. Get the picture? Another example, a study I once read on the internet (don't recall where I'd read it), showed that when a baby girl cries they are consoled/taken care of several minutes faster than when a baby boy cries. Oh, have you ever noticed when in say a shopping mall a mother walking down the hallway holding her son's hand and he's crying what the mother is doing/saying to the boy? Things like "Stop crying, be a man" "Man up" "Stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about" all the while dragging him along. But if the child's a girl? I've actually seen where the family leaves a toy store and doesn't buy a particular toy the girl wanted; the mother doesn't pull the girl along and tell her "Stop crying, big girls don't cry" or anything of the sort - the mother picks up the girl and starts talking gently in her ear, things like "Don't cry I'll get you something better" "How about an ice cream?" Give me a break.

I'm not going to go too much into the political argument. As for men dominating politics I don't doubt, and it's some or the majority of those men writing the legislation geared to coddle women; the only thing I can say about that is that it seems to me that these poor men are continuing the practice of men's slavery. That's as far as I go in that and if pushed I will detail as to what I mean by that. :D

I've got to go. Hopefully I don't need to defend myself any further... hopefully I don't need to get a towel to wipe off the spittle.

Thank you.

[æonpax]

{snip/unsnip}Women played their part in this change, but in a male dominated political arena, it is men who are at least as much to be applauded and arguably more so for surrendering much of their advantage... but most of all it is the youth and the male youth I accredit most for their open mindedness, modern and forward thinking.. so yes.. you could say I have great hopes for the next decade or so...

"Surrendering"...I might also add, by evidence of the few detractors here, a few are not surrendering gracefully. We are only talking 60 some years of working towards equality with men, against at least 4,000 years of recorded male dominance of females. While young western men, college and under, are refreshingly accepting of equality with a female, most non-western cultures still apply cultural tradition or religion, to maintain control over women.

Women's rights still have a way to go.

[void()]

"Surrendering"...I might also add, by evidence of the few detractors here, a few are not surrendering gracefully. We are only talking 60 some years of working towards equality with men, against at least 4,000 years of recorded male dominance of females. While young western men, college and under, are refreshingly accepting of equality with a female, most non-western cultures still apply cultural tradition or religion, to maintain control over women.

Women's rights still have a way to go.

Human rights do as well. I will remember, if you are ever nominated for a position of authority, to not vote for you. Nothing personal at all, I do not vote for anyone.

[æonpax]

Okay, looking at all the backwash the two of you are spitting, let me make a couple of comments.{snip}

Blessed is the man, who having nothing to say,
abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact.
George Eliot

[æonpax]

Human rights do as well. I will remember, if you are ever nominated for a position of authority, to not vote for you. Nothing personal at all, I do not vote for anyone.

Your opinion sir. Such august groups as the UN, Amnesty International and even "Human Rights Watch" still give "Women's Rights" http://www.hrw.org/category/topic/women it's own separate category. btw, I'm already in a position of authority.