Masculine

MASCULINE: having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men, especially strength and aggressiveness.
synonyms:
virile, macho, manly, muscular, muscly, strong, strapping, well built, rugged, robust, brawny, heavily built, powerful, red-blooded, vigorous;


The numbers of male posters who seem to reject traditional masculinity as far as sexual activity seems to have increased and the number of male posters who see themselves as traditionally masculine and still bisexual has been less vocal or decreased.


I read the polls on this site with regard to men bottoming and anal penetration. I wonder how men who post about cross dressing and wanting their short dress raised to be anally penetrated identify as masculine men.


I wonder about men who identify as bisexual but are not anal bottoms interested in cross dressing react or think about their masculinity and their bisexuality.


What are men’s thoughts on masculinity and your bisexuality?

**Please try to keep the conversation civil, respectful and not debase itself to porn style of language.

I was looking into this a while back and read some background on Wikipedia (yeah, I know, but I did consult other sources).

The traditional definitions of masculinity in sex have, in my opinion, derived from the Roman ideas of sexuality. The one receiving pleasure was the one in power and the one providing pleasure was subservient and often ridiculed. Man-man sex was not condemned as such, but the one being penetrated was looked upon with scorn and could lose their titles or free-born status if it was discovered they were the willing receptors in a homosexual act. Roman females could be seen as "masculine" in this sense, though the case was harder to make since the "penetrator" was considered to be the one in power. Females could assert their sexual status by referencing their social status and showing they were in control of the sex act. For instance, a noble or high-born woman could take lower status sexual partners and still be seen as the one who was pleasured. I guess over time, this nuance was lost and only the penetrators (men) were seen to be masculine and the act of penetration was the definition of masculinity in the sex act.

I think that sexuality has evolved so that we are not so focused on winners and losers (or dominant/submissive) and has focused more on mutual pleasure. I personally don't think it is any less masculine to be the bottom for oral or anal sex if it is what I want. In fact, it is empowering to be able to appreciate and participate in many different ways of experiencing sexual pleasure. I won't tolerate a sex partner who always is thinking of his/her pleasure without consideration of what I am receiving. Now that is not to say that I won't allow myself to be ravished, but the key is that I allow it and don't endure it.

I think most bi people have a healthy mixture of both the traditional masculine and feminine characteristics. If that was not so, I don't think we would be able to attract and have relationships and sex with both genders. Peg and I enjoyed the duality of our natures and they way the complemented one another.

In short, I don't get hung up on figuring out where I sit on the masculine/feminine scale. I suspect I slide around as the situation and my emotions dictate. I am who I am and that is good enough for me.

Now, as to why I will sometimes wear a garter and slinky hose when I am pleasuring myself or another, who knows?

I don't think that much about it, or over-analyze it since there's no real point in this.

Kind of an odd story with me. Seems that way to me anyway. In public life I'm somewhat stereotypically masculine, but I didn't realize I was bisexual until I discovered TS porn in my twenties. I had always enjoyed anal stimulation, discovered that erogenous zone in the bath as a toddler some time before penile masturbation. I started looking at pornography pretty young, found some magazines in a field near my house in the third or forth grade, and as a teenager I occasionally bought penthouse and playboy, and as a young adult hardcore(more explicit penetration) was what interested me.

With the internet arrives TS or Shemale porn, and that just blew me away. It was a bit of a surprise because I had looked at some gay porn and it hadn't interested me. In fact I'd downloaded a somewhat size-able collection of granny porn without taking an interest in gay. I read some studies later that concluded that most trans-attracted men don't identify as gay,

Being a nerdy teenager, I had not had many relationships with women before this and I did not have a lot of self confidence, so I never sought to try and hook up with a transgendered person or cd/tv, partially because my coworkers and neighbors were bigoted, and also because I strategized about "getting away with it" and I couldn't bring myself to ask anybody because it seemed rude, insulting. I assumed transgendered people(anybody who had taken hormones or developed breasts) had likely endured plenty of derogatory treatment, and it takes courage to come out, and if you have breasts you most certainly are out...haha...I would have felt like a heel to ask someone to sneak around.

"Please be careful I don't want to be seen with you. Back into the closet you go...just a favor...need to fulfill my porn-inspired fantacies." Couldn't do that. LOL.

But I also didn't want to be hassled, and I still don't want to be defined by sexual identity or have family thinking about my sex life, which would be irresistable if they knew I was a bi, trans attracted crossdresser. There's no way they could resist imagining me having sex..haha.
so I just decided to quarantine those desires in solo play, pornography, fantasy.

That was a little frustrating, but I had some good relationships with women and eventually got married.

After the divorce, I had an epiphany one day "Hey...I forgot..I can do anything I want now without anybody else having a right to be angry about it.

Let's re-examine this trans-ban.

And I arrived at the same conclusion basically...don't want to insult anybody...don't want to be outed...don't want stds....

But if I was real careful and strategic I may be able to find a CD that won't be insulted, isn't out, and no stds. I need a FB/FWB.

And I struck out. But after corresponding with a really entertaining CD who ignored my offers to meet in person, I ended up with a garter belt and some stockings in my basket at the box store.
That livened up the solo act substantially...haha...and I've connected with a few guys who aren't crossdressers since then, and am happy to be a bi guy who crossdresses. I'm still attracted to women too, but after many years of fanticizing about activities I had ruled against doing even though I strongly desired to, it was a relief to end the tyranny of my own making.

Don't really think of myself as female or wonder about it, but dressing changes the environment in a way that lets the mind roam that direction. It's all good as far as I'm concerned.

I picked transgendered in my profile only because crossdresser wasn't an option.

On the exterior, I've been prototypically masculine all my life. I participated in sports, hunted and fished with my dad, sought out only girls when I became of-age, married and became a father, learned to build and fix all kinds of things around the house, worked in a traditionally male-dominated technical position for 35 years, etc. Was I 'living a lie'? No. I was decidedly masculine, but not 'macho'.

It so happened that I wished I had been born female and realized this at a very early age. But I accepted what I was, did my best to fulfill the role defined by my genitals, and was, for the most part, satisfied with my lot in life. The one concession that I made to my inner desire was in wearing nylons or pantyhose privately, when I could do so without detection. I didn't want anybody to think I was 'weird'. I made my wife aware of my desires, and she was supportive, if not exactly enthusiastic, about it. I haven't overdone it and we've had a very successful marriage.

But events occurred that made me realize that my desires are deeper than simply wearing feminine underthings, and I have had some experience with oral sex with other men. (in my wife's presence and with her tacit consent) I found out that I love sucking cock, and providing pleasure to other men who enjoy sucking mine. I also love the thought of "cross dressing and wanting their short dress raised to be anally penetrated", as it was put in the first posting on this thread, but that's more than my wife would be comfortable with.

I now shave my body as smooth as I can and wear pantyhose underneath my pants. And I've removed the facial hair that I wore constantly for close to 40 years. It makes me feel feminine and sexy, and I enjoy that. Am I no longer 'masculine' because of this?? Accept a firm handshake from me. Talk football or watch me climb up on the roof to replace a few shingles. Help me build a shed, replace the windows or put siding on the garage, laminate some old cupboards or put in a new floor. Ask for advice with your electrical wiring or ridding your computer of viruses. I'm as masculine as any of your 'normal' buddies. I don't mince or prance around, or otherwise act in an affected way.

Behind closed doors, we are what our minds and imaginations come up with, and it is up to us as consenting adults to decide upon what is acceptable to each other. It's nobody else's place to judge us, and I won't conform to inflexible definitions of gender identification.

Hi Okalalola
Your post is an intriguing story. Based on what you wrote, you have felt societal pressure to conform to traditional masculine behaviour especially concerning wearing non masculine clothing.

I am wondering if you see yourself as masculine over all? Does putting women’s clothes on change your self perception from when you put on masculine clothing? Do your mannerisms change or is your behaviour remain traditionally masculine?

The few CD’s that I have been involved with remained masculine in my perception of them and their mannerisms. They were minimalistic in how much traditionally female clothing that they wore. I guess a little went a long way for them? (plus I made it clear that I was comfortable more if they wore masculine clothing but would accept some feminine clothing like stockings and slips.) When asked they seemed to refer to that wearing traditional female clothing made them feel good but not whether it made them feel feminine or masculine. They knew that they didn’t look feminine due to their body. Yet, it seemed to be role playing as feminine? One seemed to enjoy the texture of female underwear.

You mention that putting on women’s clothes sets up an environment. What is that environment? (a place where you may act feminine?)

What do you mean that you might meet a CD who would not be insulted?

You mention that your sexual attractions is to both women and men. Are you sexually attracted to transexuals who have not transitioned? Are you attractions impacting your self perception as masculine?

Thanks mnjack. I'll get back to you.

When I think of being male, I think of always having to show the outside world that you have it together, I was taught that men are tough, independent, aggressive, competitive.

I can and do fit that role when I have to, but I find a great deal of comfort in the idea of being able to bury my head in another man's arms (or between the sweet soft bossoms of a lady) and surrender. Kissing, nuzzling - sharing a very real, physical unconditional love and affection.

When I was young teen in heat - being the object of male desire was a very active fantasy I had. I don't think any of the male role models I had growing up really knew how to show love and affection to other men - that probably had a lot to do with it because my first true intimate, affectionate experience with another man was a sexualized one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tenni

Hi Okalalola
Your post is an intriguing story. Based on what you wrote, you have felt societal pressure to conform to traditional masculine behaviour especially concerning wearing non masculine clothing.

Most certainly. The local culture is diverse, lots of openly LBGT people in the area, but there's still a lot of religious zealots and other people who are vocally opposed to the "gay agenda" whatever that is, and that pressure percolates down through the community, so I prefer to keep my activities and thoughts about sexuality private, or rather anonymous.

I am wondering if you see yourself as masculine over all? Does putting women’s clothes on change your self perception from when you put on masculine clothing? Do your mannerisms change or is your behaviour remain traditionally masculine?

I only dress up for autoerotic activities, so far anyway haven't found a companion yet, so there's not really speech, and therefore no mannerisms, but that's an interesting question because I wish to find a friend who crossdresses also, and I haven't really thought about speech mannerisms. I play around a bit with body language, but for me it's more of a kink, or fetish than about identity, and it's lighthearted fun, not serious. The flipside of wishing to avoid harassment and having judgemental people gossip, etc is it's kind of fun doing this in secret knowing neighbors and others wouldn't ever guess I was getting dolled up. It bothers me that people still have this stern serious attitude about all things sexual, but crossdressing in private seems to add an element of comfort or ease to not caring what the world outside thinks.

The few CD’s that I have been involved with remained masculine in my perception of them and their mannerisms. They were minimalistic in how much traditionally female clothing that they wore. I guess a little went a long way for them? (plus I made it clear that I was comfortable more if they wore masculine clothing but would accept some feminine clothing like stockings and slips.) When asked they seemed to refer to that wearing traditional female clothing made them feel good but not whether it made them feel feminine or masculine. They knew that they didn’t look feminine due to their body. Yet, it seemed to be role playing as feminine? One seemed to enjoy the texture of female underwear.

I guess it'd be more of a performance with someone else around, and I'm not sure how comfortable I would be about acting the part necessarily, but alone I just let my mind wander wherever it takes me, and I have worked on the look with wigs and makeup, but it's not something that matters that much to me, kind of an absurd hobby I guess. It's fun, makes me jovial.


You mention that putting on women’s clothes sets up an environment. What is that environment? (a place where you may act feminine?)
A fantasy environment of the mind. Not the proper word, environment, I suppose but I couldn't think of anything better.

What do you mean that you might meet a CD who would not be insulted?
TS pornography is what attracted me initially, but as a closeted trans-attracted man I thought it would be insulting to ask a TG person who was out to sneak around with me. But as a closeted CD I think there must be other people similar to myself, and I wouldn't be insulted to be asked to sneak around. I don't want to give anybody the feeling that I'm ashamed of their sexuality or mine, yet I also prefer to not be scrutinized or bothered by people who have no business knowing about my sexual desires, activities, etc, I don't mind sharing here to further understanding, but it's nobody's business but mine and people I decide to tell.

You mention that your sexual attractions is to both women and men. Are you sexually attracted to transexuals who have not transitioned? Are you attractions impacting your self perception as masculine?
I'm attracted to women, m2F transgendered, both pre and post op, and crossdressing males for the most part. But I've played a bit with men who do not crossdress and I enjoyed it. But since I started trans-attracted and have yet to play with a cd or tg person that's the strongest interest, probably because I had ruled it out but fantacised about it a long time.
Like another poster replied, I'm masculine but not macho. I don't really care about the perception. I don't have feminine appearance(normally) or mannerisms and I mostly have worked in traditionally male vocations, which is one source of social pressure to avoid being public/open about it. I never felt insecure or confused about my gender, but enjoy this because of it's novelty and whimsy and the garments are sexy.

Thanks mnjack. I'll get back to you.

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I don't generally think about those questions you posed except when someone asks or incites it. I've been looking for a friend for awhile now and one time corresponding with another crossdresser from a personal ad as we were discussing meeting in person, they suddenly and shrilly replied out of the blue: "You're a fake!"

I didn't have a response for that at the time, so I didn't reply.
And that did make me question a lot of things, and I concluded (to myself) well yeah. ;-) I'm not a girl. Neither was he.

I was in a club in my partners town on Halloween and just assumed it was a gay club coz they all seemed pretty gay to me. So we were kissing n stuff openly in the crowded outdoor smoking part, sharing a urinal in the toilet etc with no fuss or bother from anybody.
On the way to his place he tells me it was a straight club.:eek: I argued that THAT was no straight club!!! Not one bloke there seemed straight to me, and I got way more looks from them than I did from the ladies....who I assumed to be gay too.lol

I can't pin it down, but I guessed the men were gay/bi coz they didn't have that anal retentive aura about them that overly 'masc' men seem to use as a shield when anything male remotely pleases them.
THAT definition of how masc men act is prob outdated now in some areas. In my part of the world, hetero men in straight clubs would not be comfortable with two men kissing. They would have to display disgust at it, as some kind of pseudo-religious ceremony to ward off evil demons in their loins.:tongue:

In that area.....I think that CD's, although thought of as fem and want to be viewed as fem......have way bigger balls than most who call themselves 'masc'.
I don't find them sexually attractive, but do admire them greatly for their 'balls'. They break barriers, not put them up.
In a world where males have no fear or concern for gender, CD's would be the role model for masc.
Blokes who crap themselves for getting a stiffy for another bloke, would be 'fem'.

But then again......who says fem is the weaker partner of masc?:rolleyes:

If anything, being bi and able to please women or men romantically and/or sexually and be pleased by either gender romantically and/or sexually makes me feel sooo super-masculine ! Whether my partner is female or male, she or he wants to be with a MAN and I want to be that man for her or him! I like a little kink with men and occasionally do fem-ish things such as wearing panties or calling a male lover 'baby' or french kissing a man during foreplay and in the heat of passion. Some would say those things are 'sissy' or unmasculine, but in no way do I feel less than 100% man when I do such things with a male lover. On the contrary, with either gender, I feel uber-masculine to leave her or him fully satisfied :)

When I was a kid---I really did not get "into" team sports, but I did plenty of things like spend time on boats, water skiing, snorkeling, scuba diving, fishing, canoeing, kayaking, etc. during the summer and in the winter, going out on the frozen lake either skating, playing ice hockey or running a snowmobile. I also liked to go out and hike in the deep woods, so while I didn't do the typical 'masculine/macho" things like play football (the US version) or baseball, etc. I think that my activities were pretty much in the realm of normal masculinity.

It was as much as anything, that I was more a "loner" sort, not "a joiner" and had no problem doing things by myself or maybe with just a few friends.

I had done a few things when I was young with other guys---but that was as much a matter that like all kids, I was just generally curious about sex and was horny---but I was early on uncomfortable/ clumsy and lacked self-confidence with girls. Frankly--they scared the living shit out of me for the most part.

Being with other boys was something that was much more accessible to me doing stuff like scouting and having buddies with me on my boats I had as a kid---and being young---the weather being warm---being three quarters naked already mostly going around in only a pair of shorts and flip-flops, being around the water and all---well--"stuff just happened" with other guys. It sure was fun to go skinny dipping with another boy and you found both your "thing and his" being hard in the water, with plenty of mutual groping ensuing!!

In my later teens---I did finally get my confidence and skills up to speed when it came to "the mystery that is woman" and had my share of great times with a fair number of ladies.

I always loved to "be in charge" as a rule with females when having sex---but over time---it did get to be fun to "let the woman take charge" if a particular girl friend was so inclined that way and happily--many have no problem in "taking over" and being "in charge."

It did come as some surprise to me----that when I did get with guys for more than just mutual oral and jerking off---when it came to engaging in anal sex---I found that I do prefer to "be the bottom."

I don't do this in any kind of "fem way" even though nothing wrong with that----I just say that I am a man that really appreciates and enjoys what another man can do for and to me sexually----namely to be fucked by another guy.

I have ZERO interest in being a woman or however I have seen other guys on this site and elsewhere put it---if that is what they want--well--fine for them----this is not me.

I like to be a masculine man with another masculine man---even though it is nice to not only go for "a rough, hard and fast fuck" but to also slow down and enjoy a slow tender "love making session" even those are rarer than the first kind of sexual encounter with other guys, so I do like to express a more tender side with other guys--but it's a more mutual deal.

I guess that if femininity does express in me in any way---I do tend to be a more cerebral person---liking to do creative things like writing, reading, photography, art, listening to or trying to make music, decorating my house, collecting antiques and collectibles---but with those being things items like Coke advertising and memorabilia, "Floridiana" themed items, nautical pieces, neon beer signs and other such things and I like to cook.

So--if that is being feminine--so be it--but all those things can be said of many guys who don't do sexual things with other guys.

It is interesting to see how everyone has a different take on this issue, as with other aspects of our bisexuality.