Bisexual Boyfriend

Hi Everyone,

I'm writing to get some feedback on my situation. I am a 27 yr. old bisexual female who has been in a committed relationship for 5+ years with my 25 yr. old bisexual boyfriend.

From the beginning, we were honest with each other about our sexuality. I was with a woman for a year in college; it was a circumstantial/emotional bisexual experience, but I have not felt the need/desire to be with a woman since. My boyfriend never explored his sexuality or expressed a need to, until just recently; about a month ago, he told me that he feels the need to be with men sexually. He said he does not want a relationship with a man, but just wants to explore his sexual desire for men. We both love each other very much and are happy together, so this has been a very difficult process for the both of us. He said he knows that he wants to be with me, marry me (he already bought an engagement ring), and have children, but that he feels a sexual desire for men and it is purely physical.

This has been extremely difficult for me to process. I want a monogamous relationship and made this clear to him. To me, I feel as though it is a choice to act on sexual desires and that he is being selfish. It breaks my heart to think I'm not enough for him, even though he tells me I am. It hurts me to know that he feels the need to be sexual with someone else, regardless that it is a man. I told him that I thought it best for us to go our separate ways, but he doesn't want to live without me; he doesn't want to leave/be set free, and keeps fighting for me. He tells me that being with men won't change the way he feels about me and that I don't have to worry about him leaving me for a man.

I'm torn and confused. I can understand his need to explore his sexuality, but at what cost to our relationship and my happiness? In my heart, I want him in my life as my partner/best friend/lover/boyfriend/husband, but I also want a monogamous relationship. We went to a counselor for a couple sessions, but she was not at all helpful. Are there any bisexual couples who have gone through this?

As of yesterday, I told him that he can explore his sexuality without me, as I can not emotionally handle having a threesome/sharing him with someone else while I'm there. To be honest, I'm not sure if I can emotionally handle this; not sure if I will want to be sexual with him after knowing he was with a man; not sure if my heart can let him in after that. I am willing to let him explore on his own, but feel like I'm getting the short end of the stick. I'm also terrified that he will get an STD and/or get into an unsafe situation.

It there anyone out there that can help? I'm struggling to understand and process all of this. Any insight or input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Hello,

I tink the issue is that a man can have a sexual relation without being emotionally attached. Women usually can't do it.
I'm bisexual and my husband is straight. He knew about my bisexuality from the start, and said that he doesn't mind me being with a woman, because he doesn't see a female as a thread like a male lover.
I advise you to give yourself time and accept it, because your boyfriend is gonna be bisexual until he dies. He might marry you, but if he's gonna be forced to be in a monogamous relationship and surpress his desires of being with men, he will never be truly happy.

Good luck!

I agree with Zig........he may attempt to suppress his desire for a male interaction, because he loves you, but it may put a strain on him to avoid exploring. It could become too severe for him to resist, too.

Then, again, he may try a sexual relationship and decide he isn't that interested at all. I have seen that happen.

It's true that a chance of STDs is possible, unless he takes extraordinary measures to ensure his partner isn't infected.

Since the '80s, I curtailed my same gender contact significantly. I'm much more cautious and selective, than I once was. I have never had any kind of issue with illnesses, either. I have gone as far as asked for a test, before being intimate, too. That's pretty extreme and turns some off, but I'd rather do without than not be sure a lover is truly OK.

I think you are being a bit selfish. Even if he wasn't bi, thinking that you will be all that he desires from 25 until 85/ death is unrealistic and controlling. At least he was honest enough to share his desire with you and apparently made every effort to make sure you know you are the one he loves. Why would you want to make him suppress his desire? Do you think if you break up with him and find a straight guy, great as he may be, that he will never desire another woman for the next 5 decades? Or, you won't desire another man or a woman ever? Isn't better the "evil" you know i.e. a great guy you get along with who is honest enough to desk his deepest thoughts with you ? Isn't that what makes a great relationship? The way you are approaching it, you are distillimg all that is great in your relationship to one act.... The sexual one... I would suggest you review your thoughts, desires and fears...

" I will want to be sexual with him after knowing he was with a man; not sure if my heart can let him in after that."

Hi
I hope with time that you become comfortable enough to accept him and love him for who he is. In the above quote you mention that you are not sure if you can accept him(let him in) after he has been with a man. Yet, you have been with a woman and expect him to accept you and love you. Is there a contradiction or does it seem different since you were with a woman before you met him? Perhaps if you examine this fear a bit more you may open up a bit.

As far as your concern about disease, create ground rule or boundaries that you may both accept and that create as safe as reasonably possible situation. As others have written many men see sexual encounters with other men as a non emotional experience. This may be difficult for you to accept but it is quite true.

It's good that you two were honest with each other from the start. Yes you are bisexual, but you also told him that you need a monogamous relationship. If ultimately you decide to support him being with men, do it because you can make peace with it with and know it won't damage your relationship. Just because someone is bisexual doesn't mean there is a need to sleep with other people. They are just attracted to more than one gender. There are two people in your relationship , not just him. Don't be bullied into anything you can't live with. Please don't let anyone tell you it's selfish to expect monogamy.(Both sides can argue "selfish", but we won't get into that) If it's what you need and desire, it's extremely valid. It's not about controlling your boyfriend or being selfish. He is free to do as he chooses. You aren't his jailer. He will do what he wants. That is your right as well. Your concerns about your relationship and your health are real and it isn't insensitive to voice them. Your emotional, physical, and mental well-being is your responsibility.

Agreeing to something just for his for sake, won't bode well for either of you. Just soul search and continue to talk with him. You both deserve to be happy and in a relationship that all meets your needs and desires.

"Just because someone is bisexual doesn't mean there is a need to sleep with other people. They are just attracted to more than one gender."

The above words are from a heterosexual woman who came to this site to learn about bisexuality because she said a female friend of her's was involved with a bisexual man. (not herself) She now presents heself as knowledgeable about bisexuality? Her opinion should be read from that perspective. She knows very little about bisexual needs and in particular bisexual men.

Your b/f is not asking to sleep with other people. He is not asking to sleep with women. He is asking to have physical sex with other men.

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Originally Posted by Vuillardgr

Just because someone is bisexual doesn't mean there is a need to sleep with other people. They are just attracted to more than one gender.

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That's way oversimplified! Particularly if talking about somebody who's in need of self exploration. If it were that simple and mundane, we wouldn't have half the trouble. We could just look at the same gender and think "I'm sexually attracted to him/her. That's nice! I wonder what's for supper.", and all get on with our lives as planned.;)

Ok so I'll continue to address my comments to you because there are people on here who love to attack when someone dares to not fall in line with their mantra. Yes, I am a hetero woman who's friend was having difficulty with her relationship with her bisexual husband and their situation forced me to look at how I've viewed sexuality and relationships. I'm not here to argue with anyone. When I read your post and the responses , I just felt the need to tell you there's nothing wrong with being honest about what you need and want. If you choose to support him and you are able to be happy , I say go for it...if you truly desire and need monogamy, then you shouldn't feel bad. It's your truth and that shouldn't be ignored or mocked.

We are all different. Some need and or want more than one. That's fine. Others don't and that's fine too. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

Tenni - there are many bisexual people on the internet, including this site, claiming to be monogamous, including the OP. I should imagine she has her own ideas on the subject. Bisexual people can be monogamous, the question here is whether this relationship can survive his desires if he decides to act on them. This all will depend on their relationship, he only suggested that he wants to explore his bisexuality a month ago, that's nowhere near enough time to properly process this major change and what it means for them.

Sparrow 24 - I'm the straight partner of a bisexual man and I always knew. It's not always been an easy journey though, and it's one we continue to travel after being together for 5 years. We have talked (and talked) about how he would express his bi side, I always was afraid and found it difficult to consider threesomes, which is what he really wanted. For us the turning point came when he said that we wouldn't do it, that he would bear the burden of his bisexuality alone because he couldn't bear to see me so upset and anxious. It took me 24 hours to process what he was offering me, and I realised that because I love him I don't want to deny him this true part of himself. We haven't done anything yet, and it's him that is waiting at the moment, but just coming to this understanding has settled our relationship very much. It sounds to me as though he wants and needs your approval, and has spoken to you first, I think you have to take that as a very positive thing. I would suggest you ask for the time that you need to process this, I can assure you that as time goes on and you become reassured that things can change, including your own opinion about what you will and will not do/accept.

I suggest that you don't look for instant answers, allow plenty of time for you both to understand what this will mean for you and your relationship before actually doing anything. There's no hurry, he wants to be with you for the rest of his life, and perhaps you need reassurance of that at the moment more than anything. Don't forget there may be other ways he can express himself in the meantime, perhaps sharing porn with you, or bringing a strap-on into the bedroom. I know that my partner really likes it when I get assertive in the bedroom, when I'm on top and possess him, and I think (although I don't know) that this keys into what he feels sometimes with guys. It's quite a turn on for me too, and I sometimes think (from reading the internet) that for some bisexual men this feeling of surrender is something they're looking for. Of course for you it depends on his particular flavour of bisexuality, and each person is unique.

Good luck to you both, I hope you make it.

Adding a bit onto Hasty1's theme..

I am a bisexual guy, out to my straight wife since we got engaged, we've been monogamously married for almost 34 years. HAPPILY! We still both love and like each other, we have always been best friends. So, monogamy can work. We made promises, and we are adults, we can keep them. I do not see monogamy as any different for any orientation. It is a question of faithfulness or not (with the promises and commitments, or not), some need/want it, some don't and who else is not the issue to me (if I were straight, maybe I'd want to have sex with a redhead and she is a brunette, or tall/short, etc).

But the real question here is what makes everyone happiest, individually and together. Do we want to keep them? How do we decide?

Like your BF, Sparrow 24, I have desires for sex with others. Not just men, but since I have not had sex with men in 35 years, I miss sex with men a lot more than I particularly want sex with other women. In our case, I am also a lot kinkier than she is, as well as queer, and before we met I was pretty much a slut. So as I made it past 50 and realized that I was getting a lot older and I still missed my kinky/slutty/bi days, even after this long. So I started by telling her this (about 5 years ago now) and saying that I wanted to amp up our sex life (which had dwindled, she had fallen into the trap of thinking that getting older meant giving up sex, while I was going exactly the opposite way). I also put it on the table that I'd like to consider sex with others, men mostly, but a full 4 way was my fantasy desire.

Well that started a conversation, 5 years later it's still going on..

A first, it was pretty much a constant tug of war, I wanted more, she didn't.

That has gotten a whole lot better, she thanked me for bringing back her interest in sex, and we added some kink which helps a lot (as hasty1 suggested).

Then we started considering others. My libido is still a lot (a LOT) stronger than hers, so I asked if I might find a male fuckbuddy. After some very difficult discussion, she said yes, tentatively. I found a guy and we had a dinner date (as previously agreed, dinner only). When I got home, she was a wreck, rescinded the permission and it took a while to get over the mess. That was over a year ago and it is still a touchy subject. I can't wear the shirt I wore that night without getting a grimace or a comment, and when I finally pushed it, recently, she admitted it was jealousy, that she said she never wanted to think about seeing that look in my eyes for anyone else. OK, I can work with that. I am not jealous and I only want sex with others, not love. She can't grasp that as it is a foreign concept to her, to her, sex must involve emotions...

All this time, we have also been going to a swinger's club. That has been pretty successful. We have fun, flirt a bit with others, be a bit exhibitionistic and that door is open. The agreement is that if we meet a couple (swinging is usually straight couple oriented, and I am happy to work with that for a start) where she is attracted to the guy enough to consider sex with him, we will pursue it, the plan is together or nothing. So far she has not found anyone that she wants to go that far with. But that is OK, we keep trying..

So, what's my message?

KEEP TALKING! KEEP LOVING! KEEP AT IT!

We have been at this for over 5 years. We keep our promises and commitments, but we keep exploring and pushing limits. I pull in a bit, she stretches a bit. We are mostly having a good time trying and one day, I may get to have sex with a guy again, and maybe she will decide to try another guy or even a girl. Hope springs...

Good luck!

Liz

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Originally Posted by Gearbox

That's way oversimplified! Particularly if talking about somebody who's in need of self exploration. If it were that simple and mundane, we wouldn't have half the trouble. We could just look at the same gender and think "I'm sexually attracted to him/her. That's nice! I wonder what's for supper.", and all get on with our lives as planned.;)

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It isn't over simplified at all Gear, dear... quite accurate statement of the reality. But while it's true what Vuillardgr says, the complexity of the human mind and its affect on sexuality and relationships is what causes all the trouble. How much is genetic and inborn and how much environmental and conditioning we can argue about until we are blue in the face... bit of both almost serpently... many do go "hmmm what's for supper?" and at least equal numbers go "Hmmmm he/she and even they will do for supper!!!" and why that is no one can say for sure... 1 thing is certain...just me own opinion and it is how I've lived me life more or less... none of us shud even think of settling down wiv a partner until we have explored physically and mentally wot we r... lots do and a rite pigs ear they make of their relationhsip much of the time... lots also settle down quite happily wiv 1 person and dont stray the nest... but even exploration of our sexuality is no guarantee of being gud girl or boy wen we do settle down...if we do... many have sown ther wild oats and r content.. many think they r and soon go off the rails.. ther is no guarantee of nething no matter how we live our lives and deal wiv our sexuality woteva that sexuality happens 2 b....

..so the original statement is fine and ver simple... the difficulties come from within us and even if the prevailing sexual atmosphere of our world was "Anything Goes" that statement wud still be true and the complexity of the human mind and sexuality because of both genetics and personal conditioning would still make sex and relationships a bloody minefield... we can all get on wiv our lives, but Gear babes.. not that often as planned.. least not for 2 many of us...

" there are many bisexual people on the internet, including this site, claiming to be monogamous"

Yes, there are bisexuals who are monogamous. Perhaps even some bisexuals "claiming" to be monogamous but not being monogamous? Some monogamous bisexuals are happy and some are not. Some mongamous bisexuals struggle a great deal. Regardless of monogamy status, the highest percentage of contemplation of suicide in non heterosexuals are bisexuals ...not gay monoseuxals. Female bisexuals have the highest rate of depression and contemplating suicide of all non heterosexuals with male bisexuals coming in second. Far behind (30% + lower rates than bisexuals) are monosexual gays and lesbians.

There also seems to be more than one group of bisexuality that exists under the bisexual umbrella. This may in part explain why some bisexuals are happy in monogamous relationships while others are not. The needs aspect for sex with both genders varies in different bisexuals. Sexual attraction for genders for most bisexuals is fluid and that need varies in intensity over time as well. This makes bisexuality not as simple as some wish to perceive us to be.

Monosexual females seem to support monogamy.

Tenni - Are we not welcome? Do we not have a valid point of view? Aren't the partners of bisexual men as capable of offering insight and support to partners who come here in crisis as bisexuals themselves? Are women a lesser breed in your eyes? Or monosexuals? Do the bisexual partners of such monosexual women wish that they were treated with understanding and respect here, in the hope that their relationship may be preserved instead of having their worst fears confirmed?

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Originally Posted by hasty1

Tenni - Are we not welcome? Do we not have a valid point of view? Aren't the partners of bisexual men as capable of offering insight and support to partners who come here in crisis as bisexuals themselves? Are women a lesser breed in your eyes? Or monosexuals? Do the bisexual partners of such monosexual women wish that they were treated with understanding and respect here, in the hope that their relationship may be preserved instead of having their worst fears confirmed?

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A lot of questions.

Your perspective and other monosexual perspectives are not necessarily from a bisexual perspective. It is difficult enough for us to discuss our sexuality with its very broad range. If you post something that is incomplete or inaccurate in another poster's perspective, it may be challenged or additional information. I think that bisexuals struggle enough. The OP is bisexual. There has been a very strong put down on bisexuals on this site who do not conform to monogamy and in society as a whole.

I just checked and see that you are here for"insight and company" as your partner is bisexual. Ok. You are not here to "defend monogamy" but get insight..whether you agree with what bisexuals post or not? Or are you here to defend and protect heteronormative standards even though you are in a cross sexuality relationship?

You do not feel that you are treated with respect?

WHOA!!! Ok, it seems this has turned from simply offering advice to the advice givers DAMANDING that Their points of view be accepted as the RIGHT ones and the arguments just seem to go on! This is NOT what was asked for here. To the OP: I'm a bisexual male, NOW married to a bisexual female. We Both Enjoy sexual encounters with same sex but are Both VERY picky about those partners! I was married to my former wife for about 28 years and though she admitted some minor experimentation in high school (Catholic ALL GIRLS school) which consisted of nothing more than some kissing and light petting, she always said she had absolutely NO desire to repeat that experimentation in adulthood. I was honest with her from about the 3rd month we knew each other and told her I was bisexual but that My interest in men was STRICTLY SEXUAL and she never had a problem dealing with that and really appreciated my honesty. Like you, one of her main concerns was disease and so even bought and kept a supply of condoms for me! And though she Knew that I did have a couple of guys that I met with now and then for sex play, she Never wanted to know ANY details and was most Definitely NOT interested in EVER trying a 3some with another man OR another woman. I, like your boyfriend, went out of my way to make Certain she Knew that SHE was the love of my life and that I never had Any interest in any type of romantic relations with ANYONE BUT HER!!! Now, you say you "went to a counselor for a couple sessions, but she was not at all helpful". I have to ask WHY you feel she was not at all helpful?? Could that be because she gave the same advice Most have basically been giving you here... i.e. to just Accept that your boyfriend is madly and Deeply in love with you and has NO interest in any type of Emotional or Romantic relationship with ANYONE but YOU and to simply allow him to Experiment and satisfy his Strictly SEXUAL desires for this rather than giving him the ultimatum of "My way or the Hi-way"??? Which in MOST cases will result ultimately in your Loosing the best thing that ever happened to you or is ever Likely to! My advice, like most here is to simply give him Permission to explore his SEXUAL desires and be Happy that he has been so completely Open and HONEST with you and I would be willing to bet money that you'll find that he was truthful with you and will indeed be faithful to you. How can you deny him the same chance to explore as YOU took when you were with the other girl in college? Is that really fair?? Or Are you just being selfish and controlling to force him to PROVE he's yours (your slave?)??? I need to add a bit of clarification here also: I am STILL in love with my ex-wife and always Will be. We raised 4 children together and are Still BEST FRIENDS! We simply grew apart and our interests took separate paths and we Accepted that in order to be happy we needed to go our own ways. She is completely happy being a total "homebody" and loves her knitting, quilting and gardening, while I have Always been a total "social butterfly" and Have to be out and around people. We still see each other quite often and in fact her and my new wife are great friends too and even exchanged Christmas gifts for the first couple years we were together!! I know that's a bit weird for most and it was for ME TOO! But I'm so happy that they are friends and there is no threat or jealousy there on either part!

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Originally Posted by Darkeyes

It isn't over simplified at all Gear, dear... quite accurate statement of the reality.

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Not in THIS reality it's not! Where have the aliens taken you Fran?:eek2: As you point out - there is a need to explore ourselves physically/sexually and mentally/emotionally to find out what/who we are. That is nothing like as petty or as close to a passing whim such as the attractions that exploration might kick off/be kicked of by.
In short - a bisexuals self discovery is not just about lust. Plenty of lusting goes on, but that's not the half of it. All those things you mention adds to the 'incompleteness' felt by those who deny or withhold part of themselves, and that doesn't get easier with time. It gets stronger as yu know.

That is well known about homosexuality. It is accepted that a closeted homosexual in denial of their true feelings will suffer from not accepting and exploring his/herself. We have gay pride ramming that down everybody's throats regularly, and they are dead right!
The problem many bisexuals get is that they are often in m&f monog relationships with a person they really do love, when they get that urge to explore. That gets them this-

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Just because someone is bisexual doesn't mean there is a need to sleep with other people.

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For those who have already explored and come to terms with that exploration maybe, such as the OP herself? Not so for many others who have yet to satisfy that basic need.
If it didn't have any importance attached to it, the OP's bf wouldn't put the relationship at risk. He wouldn't bother if it was trivial. He'd continue to fantasize about males and be content to keep them at a distance as he has done for years prior.
It's not necessarily coz he's just sexually bored with the OP and wants to spice it up a bit!:tongue: Nope! It's obviously something more than that. Something similar to why the OP was with a woman for a year even though there was (most prob) plenty of horny loved up college boys around at the time who'd have not been hard to get.:rolleyes:

ssshhhheeeeese!!

Thank you all for your feedback. It's been really helpful to hear everyone's take on the situation, for both me and my boyfriend. So, once again, thank you to all of you.

I wanted to clarify a couple things that I said in my original message.

I did tell my boyfriend that I thought it best for him to leave and explore his sexuality on his own, especially since I prefer a monogamous relationship. The reason I felt he was being selfish was because:

1. He knows that I want a monogamous relationship;
2. He knows I would have a difficult time emotionally handling his exploration with men, yet he is still asking it of me anyway.

The reason the counselor was not helpful was because she did not give us any advice. She listened to us communicate our feelings to each other, but we can do that just fine on our own. What we needed was someone to provide insight and give direction. We both felt we could find a better counselor to help us through this and that is why we stopped.

In regards to monogamy, I think it really just depends on what each person wants in the relationship, whether they are bisexual or not. I want to be monogamous and don't feel the need to explore. I'm struggling because my boyfriend wants to explore his bisexuality while in our relationship.

Feel free to keep the feed going. I like hearing what everyone thinks.

I apologise if I sounded cross, it was merely frustration. For someone like the OP who is going through strong and frightening emotions, and who comes here for support and ideas about how they can continue their relationship with their bisexual partner because it's what they both want, doesn't need to be told they're selfish, or that it's inevitable that their partner will turn to other men for sex, or that they will make their partner unhappy and that they should leave. I know for myself that at times I was incredibly vulnerable and if I had been told these things it may well have shaken my conviction that I have a relationship that is going to last. With time and with talking, and with compromise from both of us, we as a couple have moved to a point where we know how we are going to deal with this, together. I believe that it's possible for most relationships to weather the storm, and that those people who come here looking for advice and insight are more likely to succeed than those who don't take the time to find this place before they pack up and leave. I may not be bisexual, but bisexuality affects my life in a major way and I do have insight to offer someone in a similar situation.

Liz - thanks for sharing your story, a true example of a working relationship.

Sparrow24 - Glad you're being strong. Just wanted to let you know that a counsellor will never give you advice. I have had counselling and it surprised me too that there was no advice and no answers. What they're trained to do is give you a safe place to explore your feelings and uncover things you perhaps have repressed. The only right answer to this situation is one that you are both comfortable with, and as I said in my earlier post, give it time and communicate before either of you do anything.

As an idea, how about taking a break for a period of time, for him to explore what he needs to, and for you to think about how you feel about not having him around and whether you could incorporate his bisexuality into your relationship? It's about the only idea I can think of apart from sticking at it, or breaking up. It may change how you both feel about things, you don't feel the need to explore, but is that because you've already done it? Might the same thing happen to him? Might your feelings grow and change?

Good luck

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Originally Posted by Gearbox

Not in THIS reality it's not! Where have the aliens taken you Fran?:eek2: As you point out - there is a need to explore ourselves physically/sexually and mentally/emotionally to find out what/who we are. That is nothing like as petty or as close to a passing whim such as the attractions that exploration might kick off/be kicked of by.
In short - a bisexuals self discovery is not just about lust. Plenty of lusting goes on, but that's not the half of it. All those things you mention adds to the 'incompleteness' felt by those who deny or withhold part of themselves, and that doesn't get easier with time. It gets stronger as yu know.

That is well known about homosexuality. It is accepted that a closeted homosexual in denial of their true feelings will suffer from not accepting and exploring his/herself. We have gay pride ramming that down everybody's throats regularly, and they are dead right!
The problem many bisexuals get is that they are often in m&f monog relationships with a person they really do love, when they get that urge to explore. That gets them this-
For those who have already explored and come to terms with that exploration maybe, such as the OP herself? Not so for many others who have yet to satisfy that basic need.
If it didn't have any importance attached to it, the OP's bf wouldn't put the relationship at risk. He wouldn't bother if it was trivial. He'd continue to fantasize about males and be content to keep them at a distance as he has done for years prior.
It's not necessarily coz he's just sexually bored with the OP and wants to spice it up a bit!:tongue: Nope! It's obviously something more than that. Something similar to why the OP was with a woman for a year even though there was (most prob) plenty of horny loved up college boys around at the time who'd have not been hard to get.:rolleyes:

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Am not arguing wivya bout wotya say 2 much, babes.. but that doesn't alter the fact that it wos an accurate and simple statement... the statement as such does not over simplify the reality for the reality is quite simple and for the purpose of the post no elaboration wos needed....cos it is how it is... wy it is the reality is quite another issue cos it is we who r complex creatures who make things not simple.... not a statement 'bout the fact some peeps do and sum peeps don't need 2 sleep wiv others... tho I think "sleep" is prob not quite the word is it? After all a knee trembler or lil canoodle in the lavvy et al is hardly sleeping:tongue:.. dunno bout u.. but sleeping has always been last thing on me mind wiv ne sexual encounter... I use the expression mesel.. thoughtless habit methinks... but how stupid is it? Pretty...:eek2: