Orientation and abuse.

In a recent thread another poster dredged up a point that has long puzzled me. He told of how his early same sex experiences were non-consensual.

This kind of mirrors my own experience as my first M2M activity was forced on me by an older boy. Over the years I've met a few gay or bi men who's initial same sex experiences were cases of abuse, some of it quite brutal and drawn out over several years.

One would expect such abusive treatment in our childhood would have the effect of utterly turning a person off to same sex interaction. Instead, it seems to have opened a door and turned many of us down the path to being either gay or bi. I've often wondered about this and since I'm no shrink, I'd like to hear any opinions/theories that might explain it?

Never happened to me that I can recall. Strange now that you mention it though. For all the years I went to school I can recall teachers names, or at lest their faces. I can recall what school it was in and what room in said school. With the exception of the fourth grade, for which I can recall absolutely nothing, like it was erased from my memory in it's entirety. Always wondered what happened to that particular time period in my memory. Draw a complete blank.

Odd.

Other than that, I had one same sex experience when I was in the ninth grade. Actually more than one with the same friend. Always consensual, never forced. And we really did nothing more than mutual JO.

I do it now as I am separated from my wife, and I figure, what the hell, you only have one life to live. Might as well sample a little bit of something I'd always wanted to, while the time, my health and appearance allow for it.

In a thread here a couple years ago regarding first experiences, I was surprised at the number of guys whose first experience was with an adult often much older than they were. Most seemed to have enjoyed it and went back for more.

I agree that it does seem strange that those who felt sexually abused by the same- sex as kids would go on to become bi or homosexual. Maybe it's because our sexuality is with us from early on and we go on to do what we were meant to do? Just as a female abused by an older male might still go on to enjoy sex with men?

By the way most men treated my mother growing up I was all but ready to swear off men completely,. If being a drunk, abusive asshole was what it meant to be a man, all I knew what that I wanted to be as far away from that as possible. That was the first strike against identifying in traditional gender/sex roles. The second one was that I just was not aggressive like other boys tend to be..I was affectionate instead. The third one is that I grew up around women and learned to trust them and identify with them in ways that a lot of (at least adult) men would not.

Other males seemed to pick up on that

When one of them decided to "show me love" I thought I knew what I was getting into but I didn't really know how powerful those feelings would be..he was abusive, but he was also the first man who ever held me the way that a man can hold a woman. It really screwed with my head to be honest with you. I've always wanted the unconditional love of a father figure in my life so badly. Badly enough that I started to believe I was gay.

Some of these relationships, it's kind of like I seek out that same experience, but I crave being able to give myself in an adult role now, because I want to, not because I was pressured into it.

I now know what I want more is love, I have always wanted love and still do.

Of course, the thought has crossed my mind that I keep seeking out and repeating the same scenario over and over again - like someone who is stuck ..

When I am with a gay man I always wonder if I am really "gay" or just stuck in the past. I am obviously very well aroused, but never seem to be able to orgasm.

Women? Gee, that's sort of scary, I love them very much - some are very attractive but I grew up around them, I was raised (for the most part) by a single mother and I mostly viewed them as sisters. It wasn't until a little while ago that I even realized they crave sex as much as men. I don't think I would always want to be dominated but I am shy enough around women that they pretty much have to make what they want known in a way that few of them do for me to even realize it.

Typically I am a good friend to everyone and a lover to no one. I have had a handful of female friends that I thought were attractive but at the time they were going through some hard emotional times and I always thought it would be better if I didn't try to have sex with them while they were struggling emotionally. Who knows? Maybe being intimate is what they really needed, but I didn't view it that way anyway. I don't know that I could "dominate" a woman in the missionary position if that's what she really wanted..(although it might be fun to test that theory).

Do you know how frustrating it is "to be a friend to everyone and a lover to no one" ? I am a very oral, sexual person but trust has to be there or it means nothing and because of the abuse I am not a fan of meaningless sex..that man made love to me once, and that was the last time I ever saw him. I used to feel very demoralized about sex until I realized that my current love was not going to just up and vanish..

If I had a lover in my life who is present, constant and true I think I might finally be at peace..but also I could just be deluding myself to think that. I'm also the one sitting here reading about "two-spirit" people and watching an interesting x-ray video of something I can only imagine as a "spirit flame" dance..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFnVdN2GEC8

what is it they say? Sex is mostly in the mind? ..for some reason I can easily imagine myself dancing like that. after ALL of those experiences I'm not entirely sure that being born male wasn't a mistake - but it is what it is.

I hate being this emotional but every once in a while it seems to be "that time of the month" when I sing the blues..

Void has always been patient, kind, very loving - probably one of the nicest guys I've met so far - why I don't try to have him in my life more is a question I haven't been able to answer exactly.

Elian, I totally get what you are saying. You have been a great help to me. Thank you. From one who is "two-spirit" too.

Thanks, it is nice to know there are others out there. I usually do pretty good about keeping upbeat but every once in a while these issues seem to come up - especially when I revisit the past as I am posting is discussion forums talking of LGBT issues in the news lately. Boy Scout vote is coming up this Thursday.

I never experienced sexual abuse and for my entire live I have been bisexual, never heterosexual.
Maybe, I would have been homosexual if there had been abuse.
While I am glad I was never sexually abused, often, I wish I was homosexual rather than bisexual.

NATURE OR NURTURE... the long lasting question.

the answer is ....
Both.
and
neither.
Each can be overcome, if desired.
Nature is the most difficult to overcome, usually.
Sexual abuse at an early age (setting forth a pathology) can be equally (if not more) difficult to 'overcome'.
The difficultly arises in that why would you want to try to overcome someone's nature? (As long as that nature was not to harm others)

The "difficulty" comes in living for others when others are wrong.

Your story is a heart wrenching one, Elian. I wish no child ever had to endure what you have.

I don't know what kind of person I would be if I had never been abused...maybe I'd be a bit more of an optimist, or more outgoing. I can imagine whole list of character traits I might have developed if things had been different. But then perhaps some negative traits might have crept into my make-up as well. I'll never know for sure so I choose to believe that my abuse has shaped me in a positive way....made me more compassionate for example. We can't change the past so we have no choice but to use it as best we can.

Well, my sexuality doesn't seem to be the only way that I am "different" but regardless of what you see on TV, something does not have to be "perfect" to be beautiful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6BHi...A30E682314BDBA

for some reason this has been running through my head too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJWurqWTeSk

..it seems like a lot of people are struggling right now.

Because I had to question my self-worth I was given the gift of an open mind and the capacity to love all people. In this lifetime there are a lot of things that we need to change about our understanding of the value of people, institutions and what it means to ask for help.

The local newspaper has had an active discussion related to the Boy Scouts of America repeal of ban against gay scouts, and about a local transgender student. As I contribute to those discussions I can see the value of my life and what I have struggled for. I can't tell what would have happened if I never had to question who I really loved but if that's what it takes to illicit the response I am writing to these groups, I suppose it was worth it.

If I had a strong mentor in my life growing up besides my parents I don't think I would have felt so isolated. I don't enjoy hurting people, and I know right now there is a lot of hurt over the BSA decision, but ultimately I think it was the right one, whether or not they made it for the "wrong" reason. Thinking back on it now I guess I DID have strong mentors such as teachers and others who cared - maybe that is why I can say I am successful today. I think all children deserve that opportunity to the fullest extent.

We are not presented with challenges in our life because the universe wants to punish us – we face challenges because it is our task to grow. Success or failure, we grow, and it is good. I am simply trying to convince myself and others that through it all, no matter what – you are loved.

This book has some flaws but it gave me the "training wheels" I needed to break free of a cycle of self-loathing: http://www.amazon.com/Lovingkindness.../dp/157062903X

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erqJF_ppqbk

Awesome video Elian. Thanks for sharing.