From Belleville IL -- Peta in trouble again -- Sign the petition

[FalconAngel]

In Belleville, IL this past weekend, There was a dog show at which a marked van from PETA was seen skulking about. It also turns out that after the van left, several of the dogs' water bowls had been tampered with. They had a colored substance of unknown origin mixed in with the water (turned out to be anti-freeze).

This, and other acts by Peta have prompted a serious action on the part of the federal government; Consideration to revocation of it's tax exempt status.

If any of you are on Doggyspace, you can read about the incident in detail there or from the newspaper in Belleville, IL.

However, one of the actions is here. Please sign the petition:
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/article_detail.cfm?article=154

Here is more info on this eco-terrorist organization:

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/petasdirtysecret.cfm

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/article_detail.cfm?article=134

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/article_detail.cfm?article=156

http://activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/o/21-people-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals

And for those that still think that Peta is a good organization, then perhaps they can explain why an organization that supports Vegan diet has an 8 x 12 walk in FREEZER in their headquarters.
Last time I checked, meat and dead animals/ dead people are the only things that need a freezer to store them.

Peta has violated a number of state and federal laws. Many of which are justification for revocation of it's 501(c)3 status. This must happen to insure that this terrorist organization is shut down and all of it's funding taken away.

[TwylaTwobits]

I signed the petition happily, I have a big problem with PETA or any other organization that tries to force it's views on others through elaborate scare tactics and disgusting personal campaigns.

[mariersa]

I tried but as expected they wanted a USA address, sorry! :(

[Long Duck Dong]

just one minor point falcon,.... bread and other perishable goods also need freezers....

that aside.... I reckon we can put peta to good use.... there are plenty of starving animals that need a good feed, I just hope peta tastes as good as animal food

[Hephaestion]

I wonder who PETA have upset to have gained such a 'clear-cut' damning?

H.

[xtopherix]

I've been disgusted by PETA's tactics at every turn. Just a month or so ago, It was PETA members threatening an Olympic skater over his choice of costume, and as I was following the debate, it some how escalated into an inquiry into his orientation, which I thought was completely out of line.

[crazy_cat_lady]

Wait...I'm confused...@_@

Doesn't peta try to save animals? Why the hell are they trying to kill dogs at a dog show?

And why the hell would they care about an olympic skaters attire? were they wearing a fur coat? :eek:

[Hephaestion]

I think that I have found the relevant article - the fashion orientated fellow decided to wear a fox lined costume and so representation was made that he shouldn't

PETA have an advert which I have seen which shows a pet dog sitting next to Charlize Theron and the caption says (I paraphrase the relevant entry):

"you wouldn't want to wear your pet dog's skin would you, so why would you wear any fur?"

Perhaps if one or two people were skinned for their produce and that made into fashion items like lampshades we might adjust our thinking. Wait a minute that's already been done during WW2 and we loved it (complete with serial numbers) - didn't we?

As for the fashion orentated fellow in question, likely any publicity would have been seen as good publicity (I'd never heard of him before). Is this not another of those controversial stories in the vein of 'shows naked children and claims art' which we all so abhor (but doesn't work with old tennis shoes as photographic subjects). So many people dressing outrageously - only fox fur set him apart and so he is a disgrace.

[TwylaTwobits]

Heph, it's also been done by Ed Gein, a real life serial killer who was the basis for a lot of the baddies over the years in books and movies. He had lampshades and chair covers out of human skin, he used skull bowls to eat out of and he was just a majorly sick individual.

[rissababynta]

Wait...I'm confused...@_@

Doesn't peta try to save animals? Why the hell are they trying to kill dogs at a dog show?

And why the hell would they care about an olympic skaters attire? were they wearing a fur coat? :eek:

Peta actually kills lots of animals. They say that they are saving them from people that way.

[rissababynta]

One thing that I always found amusing was that the last time I heard, the woman running the show at Peta was taking insulin, a drug that we wouldn't have today if not for animal testing...

[FalconAngel]

just one minor point falcon,.... bread and other perishable goods also need freezers....

that aside.... I reckon we can put peta to good use.... there are plenty of starving animals that need a good feed, I just hope peta tastes as good as animal food

Vegans don't eat foods that need to be kept frozen (refrigerated, maybe), but more importantly, this freezer is in their corporate office and it is a walk in, commercial freezer.

btw, they taste like chicken. :yikes2::bigrin:

Check out these videos for a good laugh at Peta's expense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAt1z_TgPQ4&feature=PlayList&p=89AD05CC54EDD41A&index=0&playnext=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqlF2rvcYIs&feature=PlayList&p=89AD05CC54EDD41A&index=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsMjgnLxFRw&feature=PlayList&p=89AD05CC54EDD41A&index=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgZ0dSiTGdI&feature=PlayList&p=89AD05CC54EDD41A&index=3

[FalconAngel]

Wait...I'm confused...@_@

Doesn't peta try to save animals? Why the hell are they trying to kill dogs at a dog show?

And why the hell would they care about an olympic skaters attire? were they wearing a fur coat? :eek:

Over the past year, they took in more than two thousand healthy, adoptable cats and dogs, they euthanized all but eight. So much for trying to save animals.

Peta's agenda is "total animal liberation", which means no interaction, of any kind between any animals and any humans.
That means that we can say good-by to working animals, service animals, therapy animals, medical testing (which also means no help developing medications that help those same animals as well as people), no milk, eggs, meat products to eat, no leather products, no pets of any kind, no pesticides, no insect repellents and a bunch of other things that are direct products and byproducts of human - animal interactions.

Read the links and look up the myriad of incriminating articles on Peta.

Also read the Youtube links that I just previously posted.

[FalconAngel]

One thing that I always found amusing was that the last time I heard, the woman running the show at Peta was taking insulin, a drug that we wouldn't have today if not for animal testing...

Inbred Newkirk is taking insulin, but apparently, their rule applies to everyone but her and the heads of the organization. Kind of like scientologists.

[Hephaestion]

I suspect a lot of wilful misinterpretation is going on.

Caring vets are plagued with putting unwanted pets down. To avoid this there are free spaying / neutering drives. In the UK we remind owners that having a dog is not just for Christmas. The 'Battersea Dog's Home' (caters for any animal that comes their way) regularly suffered a glut of unwanted greyhounds that had outlived their useful lives in racing.

If there is no one who can look after an animal and the funds / manpower / space etc are not there to do it charitably then guess what - the animal must be put down; it's part of the capitalist society (Just wait until old folk are too expensive to keep - that won't be too long now).

It's not the charity that is at fault - it is the sheer numbers of stupid humans who have no idea about sensible resource utilisation and can only think of the cutsy 5 mins of pet ownership. Anyone with an animal understanding knows that it's the other way around, pets own their humans.

If lots of carcasses need to be stored before the disposal method can be deployed, in human society we call that a mortuary whereas animals tend to be put in a freezer.

[Doggie_Wood]

I just joined a sub-division of PETA called PETA-CWLI

People Eating Tasty Animals - Cause We Like It :bigrin:

Doggie :doggie:

btw - I signed

[Wrenn]

[QUOTE=FalconAngel;159759]Vegans don't eat foods that need to be kept frozen (refrigerated, maybe),

Since when? I know lots of vegans who use the freezer to store their food.

[Long Duck Dong]

Vegans don't eat foods that need to be kept frozen (refrigerated, maybe), but more importantly, this freezer is in their corporate office and it is a walk in, commercial freezer.

btw, they taste like chicken. :yikes2::bigrin:

Check out these videos for a good laugh at Peta's expense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAt1z_TgPQ4&feature=PlayList&p=89AD05CC54EDD41A&index=0&playnext=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqlF2rvcYIs&feature=PlayList&p=89AD05CC54EDD41A&index=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsMjgnLxFRw&feature=PlayList&p=89AD05CC54EDD41A&index=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgZ0dSiTGdI&feature=PlayList&p=89AD05CC54EDD41A&index=3

I have vegan and vegetarian friends that use freezers.... this is cos of the options of buying in natural foods is limited so they store food in freezers for the seasons when some foods are not available.....

I have enjoyed many vegan only meals that have been made in bulk and frozen by my friends.... beautiful meals too.. but frozen in a freezer to stop them going to waste....

yes I have friends that are vegan and only eat fresh food as well, and their diet is extremely limited based around the availability of some foods..

[Darkside2009]

So a van is seen at a dog show with PETA inscribed on it and all of a sudden they are being blamed for trying to poison the water of some of the dogs.

Might the occupants of this van have been attending this show to monitor the treatment the dogs were receiving? Certainly another possibility, I would have thought.

Might the watering bowls of the dogs not have been tainted by another dog owner attending the show? Perhaps one aggrieved that his/her animal had not won any prizes in any of the categories. A case of simple jealousy?

I'm sure I can't be the only vegetarian with a freezer.

If embarassing some silly person for wearing a fur coat saves future animals being slaughtered for the same reason then I for one would not have any sympathy for them.

As to terrorists, that adjective is becoming a little worn out in your vocabulary, perhaps it's time to find a new one for people you disagree with.

[mariersa]

OMG, it's beautifull, I always wanted a mink coat!!! Thank You Steve!!!:tongue:

[Hephaestion]

Excellent Penn and Teller - which is the corpulent one (definitely full of shit there - estimate about 60kg). Pity that the point of not abusing animals gets lost despite showing e.g. animals being dropped and damaged.

Loved the way that 911 was worked into the story.

Many cultures understand the sacrifice of one life so that another may survive. The death is celebrated rather than revelled in

Cooking was discovered when grandmother fell asleep by the campfire, She tasted very much like pork but more tender in places despite her shrivelled age. (The evolution man)

Now there's a solution.

[mariersa]

As I've said before

AsCooking was discovered when grandmother fell asleep by the campfire, She tasted very much like pork but more tender in places despite her shrivelled age. (The evolution man)

Soylent Green
(Arms and Bits Only no Granny Thighs TY):eek:

[FalconAngel]

Vegans don't eat foods that need to be kept frozen (refrigerated, maybe),

Since when? I know lots of vegans who use the freezer to store their food.

SO when does that require a 12 by 8 walk in freezer.....even for an office as small as theirs? As I recall the building that houses their headquarters is only about 4 or 5 stories tall and not all that big, once you discount the entire 1st floor as being an open entry area with almost no office space there. I've seen pics of the facilities.

I could see a floor freezer, like the ones that people buy for their garages, but a 12 by 8 walk in? That is a lot of very frozen space. More than most restaurants.

[Hephaestion]

Beware the freezer police.

Beware the thought police

Beware propaganda conveyed by gentlemen dressed in shiny black

Beware criminality by association ('before the cock crows thou will have denied me thrice' + 'Do you know of any Jews or others of inferior race?' + was this not an underlying principle of McCarthyism).

Branding - Mmmmmmm!

Mariersa "....... Soylent Green
(Arms and Bits Only no Granny Thighs TY.........."

LOL - AKA "More room More Room"
Oh Dear - the oceans currently appear to be unable to cope with our demands.

Branding - Mmmmmmm!

Branding - Mmmmmmm!

Branding - Mmmmmmm!

[rissababynta]

I loved the Penn and Teller thing on this. It was great.

[FalconAngel]

I suspect a lot of wilful misinterpretation is going on.

Nope.
The facts are very clear on this one.

Peta doesn't even try to do a very good job of hiding their financial ties to other eco-terrorist organizations. It's all public record. And their leader has even come out and publicly said that the organization supports and recommends "radical action to ensure total animal liberation" and they are completely unapologetic about it.

It was Peta that tried to poison the water bowls at the Belleville, Illinois dog show this past weekend.


Caring vets are plagued with putting unwanted pets down. To avoid this there are free spaying / neutering drives. In the UK we remind owners that having a dog is not just for Christmas. The 'Battersea Dog's Home' (caters for any animal that comes their way) regularly suffered a glut of unwanted greyhounds that had outlived their useful lives in racing.

I can't speak for the UK now, but I do recall, back in the early 1980's, when I was stationed there, they were very big on spay/neuter as well as having some of the strictest animal protection laws on the planet.

But here in the US, the vast majority of vets have the contact information for any number of local and interstate animal rescue groups. I know that in our local area, there are at least 2 different Greyhound rescue groups, perhaps because we have 3 tracks for greyhound racing in the area; and that does not include the other rescue groups that hit the local county shelter every week.

The local HS shelter, that we volunteer at, while not being a "no kill" shelter (we are as close as you can get to it without being "no kill"), only puts down animals that are too sick to be saved, too old to get adopted (normally over 11 or 12 yo), or cannot be socialized at all.
But then, we also have a large volunteer force, which saves the shelter a lot of the donation money that they get and still allows them to operate at full capacity.
We have 80 large kennel cages (that can be split into 160 medium cages) in 4 kennels, 2 catteries with more than 20 cages each, we run low cost shot clinics every couple of months (a godsend to folks that cannot afford their shots through the vet), we are associated with VCA veterinary clinics and just ran the annual Walk for the Animals, which was a huge success, even though the weather was cold.
Go to http://www.humanebroward.com/ if you want to learn more.

And we are not associated with the HSUS.



If there is no one who can look after an animal and the funds / manpower / space etc are not there to do it charitably then guess what - the animal must be put down; it's part of the capitalist society (Just wait until old folk are too expensive to keep - that won't be too long now).

There is always someone.

Like I said before, there are tons of animal rescue for almost every breed out there in this country. There is even a group called "Angel Paws". They are private pilots that volunteer their time and aircraft to fly rescue dogs all over the country through a "pony express" style system of aviator volunteers.

It's already too expensive to care for the elderly, which is why many families take in their elderly family members, but that is another story.



It's not the charity that is at fault - it is the sheer numbers of stupid humans who have no idea about sensible resource utilisation and can only think of the cutsy 5 mins of pet ownership. Anyone with an animal understanding knows that it's the other way around, pets own their humans.

You are kind of right. Irresponsible people are a huge part of the problem. We had one dog, a French Mastiff named Luca that was adopted (his new owners didn't treat him right and starved him a bit), then returned claiming that he was too destructive to the furniture.
We saw him for his pet therapy and when we saw him, we immediately thought of our friends, who had recently lost their Bull Mastiff (a rescue) to a congenital disease.
So we called our friends, who were waiting for the doors of the shelter to open the next day and adopted him. He is one big happy couch potato. And very affectionate.

But never forget that Dogs have owners while cats have service staff.:tong:



If lots of carcasses need to be stored before the disposal method can be deployed, in human society we call that a mortuary whereas animals tend to be put in a freezer.

The problem, as regards Peta, is that they lie to people, telling them that their loved and healthy pet will get adopted out, but then they take them to their collection van and kill them on the spot without even a cursory effort to get them new homes.
That is neither honest (ethical) nor humane.

Peta members were caught doing just that a couple of years ago. That is not the right thing to do.

As far as disposal, most states require cremation, so there is often a long period to wait in order to do a mass cremation.
But as far as I know, their headquarters is not zoned for animal handling of the type that would require that 12 by 8 walk-in for that type of usage.

By the way, Peta is being driven out of their headquarters by the locals, because they are sick of being associated with Peta. They are doing it quite legally, by refusing to allow Peta to renew their lease on the building. That is the right of the property owner to do.

[FalconAngel]

So a van is seen at a dog show with PETA inscribed on it and all of a sudden they are being blamed for trying to poison the water of some of the dogs.

Newkirk has publicly stated that the goal of Peta is "total animal liberation" and has also publicly stated that they encourage "radical action" to support that goal.

The problem, as regards Peta, (which I just posted to Heph) is that they lie to people, telling them that their loved and healthy pet will get adopted out, but then they take them to their collection van and kill them on the spot without even a cursory effort to get them new homes.
That is neither ethical nor humane.

Peta members were caught doing just that a couple of years ago.



Might the occupants of this van have been attending this show to monitor the treatment the dogs were receiving? Certainly another possibility, I would have thought.

As mentioned above, Peta has a long history of animal abuse to help their cause. One of the videos that they have, showing the skinning process is clearly staged by them, because if a skinner tried to skin an animal alive, that animal would fight back, viciously. It is easier to skin a dead animal than a live one. Every hunter or animal skinner knows that, but Peta expects that the majority of city folks, their prime audience, is not bright enough to figure it out.

However Peta also knows that the Humane society shows up at these events to protect the animals and make sure that they are not being abused, just as they do when animals are used in movies.

Peta does not show up to these kind of events to insure a safe environment for the animals. Their intent is to sever ALL human-animal ties and interactions. They have stated that over and over again.
That agenda is, realistically, not compatible with animal welfare.

Peta's agenda is not about animal welfare.



Might the watering bowls of the dogs not have been tainted by another dog owner attending the show? Perhaps one aggrieved that his/her animal had not won any prizes in any of the categories. A case of simple jealousy?

It is possible, but not likely. No dog owner that shows dogs would do that kind of thing. It is unheard of here in the US.

The basic rule of thumb is this: If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.



I'm sure I can't be the only vegetarian with a freezer.

I am sure that you aren't, but even vegans don't have a need for a commercial, 12x8, walk in freezer for their office.
Even most small restaurants don't use freezers quite that big. Refrigerators, maybe, but not freezers that big.


If embarassing some silly person for wearing a fur coat saves future animals being slaughtered for the same reason then I for one would not have any sympathy for them.

So you support the idea of supporting people that commit the crime of assault? That is just wrong.

Peta has also supported, encouraged and financed arsonists and acts of vandalism against testing labs and their employees. Violent acts to force social and, indirectly, economic change.


As to terrorists, that adjective is becoming a little worn out in your vocabulary, perhaps it's time to find a new one for people you disagree with.

Tell me that when they firebomb your neighbor's house for having a pet. Peta has been linked, financially to people who have committed acts of eco-terrorism, such as ALF and Earth First, who are listed, world wide as eco-terrorist groups.

That isn't my designation of them; that is the international law enforcement community's designation.

If you won't call a spade a spade, then the problem is not the word, but the person that hears it and is offended or irritated by it.

I don't care if you are vegan or not. It makes no difference to me and has no effect on my life. It is your decision and has no bearing on my life.

But when you support and/or defend the illegal, violent and destructive act of another, then you put yourself with them

Like I said before; If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Peta's words, ads and deeds make them what they get called......eco-terrorists. They willfully commit crimes and that is what makes them criminals.

There is no defense for that.

Law enforcement has a basic rule of thumb, too. When a suspect behaves suspiciously, they have either done something wrong or are about to.

So, until they stop promoting violence and criminal behavior for their cause, they will be treated as criminals and suspected according to their behavior.

[Hephaestion]

Dear Falcon,

Your comments noted but I regret we must disagree on this. I think PETA's aims are laudable even though some of their 'marching buddies' may have gone over the top (even I draw the line at burning laboratories).

What is good is that we all care enough about animals to be chewing each other out on this.

On a lighter note - the neighbour to our rear came home one evening to find almost the entire kitchen in the back garden courtesy of his Great Dane. Fortunately no flexible gas pipes were severed. The back door? What back door? Parts of that were in our garden.

Regards

[FalconAngel]

Dear Falcon,

Your comments noted but I regret we must disagree on this. I think PETA's aims are laudable even though some of their 'marching buddies' may have gone over the top (even I draw the line at burning laboratories).

I cannot agree that terminating animal-human interaction is laudable, nor is it realistic.

Animals and humans have more than a million years of cooperative and useful interaction, from the first wolves that were domesticated to help protect small tribes to Agricultural use to the companion animals, therapy animals and working animals of today.

I can not imagine a world without our beloved pets, zoos for our children to learn about all of the wonderful animal species, or any of the other things that people today don't think will be affected by such an insane idea. Nor can I imagine a world without human-animal interaction of any kind. It would be a sad and horrible place it would, indeed be, without that.

http://www.uswardogs.org/id16.html

http://www.gnn.com/article/pooch-saves-boy-lost-in-wilderness/660171?icid=main|main|dl5|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.g nn.com%2Farticle%2Fpooch-saves-boy-lost-in-wilderness%2F660171

http://www.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/conservation/projects/aberdeen_kites/index.asp

As a member of an omnivorous species, I like my hamburgers, hot dogs, corned beef, Pepperoni, fried chicken, baked chicken, Philly cheese steaks, BBQ ribs, et al.
Sorry, no links for those. I think I ate them. :eek:



What is good is that we all care enough about animals to be chewing each other out on this.

Well, I can agree with that, but only a little bit. Remember that animal welfare is not the same as animal rights. I am all for animal welfare and I demonstrate it every week when I volunteer at the local Humane Society shelter (not associated with HSUS) and any other chance that I get.

Peta has no problem with eliminating as many animals as they can lay their hands on, not through adoptions, but though Euthanasia of healthy and adoptable animals. Their history on this particular issue is a matter of public record.

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/pressRelease_detail.cfm/release/258

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/h/3859-peta-kills-animals-and-the-news-is-spreading-like-wildfire

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525039,00.html?test=latestnews



On a lighter note - the neighbour to our rear came home one evening to find almost the entire kitchen in the back garden courtesy of his Great Dane. Fortunately no flexible gas pipes were severed. The back door? What back door? Parts of that were in our garden.

Regards

Great Danes are kind of on the co-dependent side.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/great_dane/index.cfm
They love to be near their people.

We had one at the shelter last year. Just a big old over-sized lap dog.
When my wife went in to do his pet therapy he jumped up, put his paws on her shoulders and spent the whole time licking her face. He was a wonderful dog and had a home before the week was out.

Your neighbors probably didn't give him a big enough chew toy to keep him busy when they were gone.

[Hephaestion]

I repeat my original suspicion that there is wilfull misinterpretation going on.

I shall stay away from the animal research side of matters because the funding and experimentation infractrsuture inertias / momentums are a universe of discussion in their own.

Clearly severing all animal human interaction in the way being read is not possible.

In the same vein, it is also not possible to divorce animal welfare from animal rights entirely in the way that it is being suggested. Without rights there would be no need for welfare beyond checking obvious disease transmission to man and even then the boundaries would be extremely difficult to establish.

There are some pretty obvious abuses depicted in the clips shown by even the antagonists to PETA but there is no acclaim for the fact that PETA have had the courage to publicise these.

Why is a dog being held down and slapped across the face?

Why is a dog skinned alive and left hanging still alive?

Why are pigs being dropped off a two tier truck without regard?

Why is an unstunned cow being hoisted by one leg and then dropped?

These are only a few hideous events sampled in a continuum. We need to be aware that this kind of behaviour is going on and stop it by the most legal and convenient method possble - I don't want some callous bastard playing with my food in that way. It offends.

Widening the concept of abuse in general. In the UK we are thankfully moving away from battery hen farming. Fox hunting has been stunted. For a long time veal was off the menu as was diseased goose liver but we are losing ground in these last two. None of this was accomplished by writing a letter to the Times.

When it comes to euthanasing unwanted animals in shelters, it is not possible to rehome everything that is brought in. It is a sad fact that euthanasing happens. No doubt there are great efforts made to rehome where possible. One assumes that in this world of fancy communicaiton there is a network of charitable organisaitons who come to each others aid. All of our animals have been and are 'rejects' (how could anybody lose these animals willingly?) and we were able to find what we wanted.

An organism kept in controled and confined environment with options delimitted by someone else is by definition in a state of slavery. Now that slavery can be lax or it can be rigid. Battery hens kept on 'productive' diets of scientifically formulated pellets, cliped beaks, clipped wings within small cages and killed after peak productivity fit the concept of rigid slaves. As for 'Chickens are stupid' this is not true. They have a limited series of responses that humans may understand but their own social behaviour is quite impressive when allowed to express itself. Reminder of the BSE problems and that it wasn't that long ago that horse cruelty was prominet in our societies and then take a look at the way some donkeys are treated in the 3rd world. Watch animals having the throats sawn open with blunt knives in the name of Allah. I am pleased that PETA are trying to stand in the way of this.

There is a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater here - from both sides of the divide. PETA may be making a hash of the PR exercise in your scope but PETA's efforts are appreciated elsewhere.

Is the problem a local one? Is it contrived because the 'damning' evidence is nebulous in the extreme and highly circumstantial. The way it comes across is that somehow they are an impediment in the pursuit of unreasonable profit and someone is out to fix them.

I cannot accept that PETA are outright bad guys whatever the story being formed as their efforts known outside the USA are worthy of support. That said I heed what you have said and shall keep a wary eye.

As ever Falcon,

Your loving, vivisection trained, hunting, omnivore with carnivorous 'pets'.

('I'm wearing me sou'wester so cut its head off, wipe its arse, tie bread with mustard on it, and drag it 'ere')

[darkeyes]

I accept most of your post Heph in this for I am all too aware of what the media and very often the authorities tell us of many organisations which do not fit with my knowledge of what I know of them and having been a part of some of them. The reality of what they espouse bears no relation to public perception. Of Peta I know very little, but I do know for sure that public perception and the claims of media and the authorities are indeed very often completely different things, and so we should always treat what we are told with a healthy dose of scepticism until we find out for certain what the truth is for ourselves.

Just one question, I cant say about the south, but I know there has been a return of veal on menus, but up here it is usually red veal, while white veal was very frowned upon becauuse of how it was produced. According to my father, white veal entered the food chain here from France back in the 60's and killed off our own veal production which was more expensive. For those who do not know, white veal is produced indoors (or was) and the calves are fed a diet of milk until they are 6 months old and then slaughtered and processed. They never see a blade of grass. Red Veal is from calves farmed outside and have the benefit of fresh air, grass and daylight. It is this which gives it the richer more pink colour and I am told, flavour. I believe they too are slaughtered at 6 months but maybe you can enlighten me Heph.

I am not a veal eater and never have been, but I do like meat. Certainly I could never eat anything produced in a battery or which is in my view raised, treated and/or slaughtered inhumanely. Are you opposed to veal production per se Heph, for I am not quite clear on this. I know I am very uncomfortable with the thought of eating a lil bittie babba calf, and I think thats why in my confused, scatterbrained and mushy way I dont do so. Is there anything less moral about slaughtering and eating a 6 month old cow than there is one of 2 or 3 years old?

Kissie..:)

[darkeyes]

There u are..shows what I know about veal..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veal

I was right, but wrong.. but not so far wrong I think.. I think what we can buy is mostly Rose veal rather than the red..

*light bulb switcheds on in pea brain.. fone farmer Bri.. he would kno*:)

Whatever it is, and even slaughtered at 35 weeks I still don't fancy it..:(